Do you trust Veach/Reid to draft WR or DE?

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by kccrow

MVS's contract is still far too big for what he's shown. Even if you cut him after this year, that means this year cost you $8.88 million. Why on Earth pay that for a guy that has struggled to break 30 receptions?

He's a guy that I'd have expected to make $2 million at best, PER.

The last couple of years, it feels like the Chiefs have been forced to throw the plan out of the window and just "react" sometimes, which in some ways is a failing by Veach but in other ways, I like what he has achieved given the circumstance.

For example, no way the Chiefs could have known they would need to replace both tackles going into 2021. If the Devante Adams deal gets done right on opening day of free agency, or if the Chiefs knew that they could not afford Tyreek pre free agency, I think our WR group looks different, better than this and does not include MVS.

When you look at some of the deals given out though (Kirk), I don't think the MVS one is that bad...

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by kccrow

MVS's contract is still far too big for what he's shown. Even if you cut him after this year, that means this year cost you $8.88 million. Why on Earth pay that for a guy that has struggled to break 30 receptions?

He's a guy that I'd have expected to make $2 million at best, PER.

Well those are some ridiculous expectations considering the WR market.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Well those are some ridiculous expectations considering the WR market.

You're not wrong about the market being high, but I disagree about the market aligning with what MVS received.

Rashard Higgens has had similar production in Cleveland and signed with Carolina for vet minimum. The same goes for James Washington signing in Dallas. Neither of those guys are as fast nor had quite the explosive plays but overall they had very similar production on the whole. Cedrick Wilson signed with Miami for less and had way better production last year in Dallas. DJ Chark signed a one-year deal for $10 million and is 10x more productive in his career.

I feel like Veach may have got hosed. I truly hope I'm wrong on MVS and he earns that check. He's been less productive than Pringle and he had Aaron Rodgers at QB, so really there aren't many excuses for him. At over 8 million per season in cash costs, he better step his game up big time. I don't know, we'll have to see the product on the field with Mahomes in this offense.

[CupidStunt]

Originally Posted by kccrow

I feel like Veach may have got hosed.

Multiple teams wanted MVS. No one wanted the dudes you listed.

Beyond that, MVS' contract is nothing. If they ditch him after year 2 it's 2/18, which is ****ing nothing in this day and age. Are people really so out of touch with contracts in the NFL these days?

When Christian Kirk is getting $18m/year with term, or a rapist out of football for a year is getting $230m guaranteed, how the heck are people worrying about a 2/18 deal for a young, high-upside player.

It can even be treated as a 1/9 deal, with a marginal cap hit. If things go THAT bad. Which they won't. Dude, if the Bills want to move on from Von in a couple years, when he's 35, they'll have a 20m cap hit. That's the type of deal worth worrying about.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by CupidStunt

Multiple teams wanted MVS. No one wanted the dudes you listed.

Beyond that, MVS' contract is nothing. If they ditch him after year 2 it's 2/18, which is ****ing nothing in this day and age. Are people really so out of touch with contracts in the NFL these days?

When Christian Kirk is getting $18m/year with term, or a rapist out of football for a year is getting $230m guaranteed, how the heck are people worrying about a 2/18 deal for a young, high-upside player.

It can even be treated as a 1/9 deal, with a marginal cap hit. If things go THAT bad. Which they won't. Dude, if the Bills want to move on from Von in a couple years, when he's 35, they'll have a 20m cap hit. That's the type of deal worth worrying about.

Pretty terrible attempted dig to call me out of touch with contracts.

It's debatable whether or not MVS was in "more demand" than the receivers I listed. You have absolutely no way of knowing that. My point is simple, those receivers, with around equivalent production, have signed for far less.

While some have been signed in line with their actual ability and production, there are a few outliers like Kirk, MVS, and Zay Jones. That doesn't mean the entire market has gone reeruned. Yes, the market is getting more expensive and especially so at the top. Veach, in my opinion, overpaid for what he's getting in lieu of getting a better bargain. Now, that could absolutely work out but let's not pretend he didn't have an equivocally good QB throwing him the football in a similar offense.

Christian Kirk at 18 per actually makes more sense to me than MVS at 10 per. Kirk is younger, has produced more and appears to be on the ascent. I don't think Kirk should be making that either and that the Jags overpaid but Kirk undoubtedly had suitors.

Either way, the only thing we can do is hope he works out and applaud Veach if it does. If it doesn't, well, I'm very prepared for that.

[Wilson8]

I can appreciate the questions about the draft and do we trust the Veach/Reid team of being able to draft a WR or DE.

Brett Veach is only 44 years old and has only served in the role of GM since the middle of 2017. I think he has made some mistakes in the past but has learned from that.

In Breeland Speaks (2018 draft), Brett fell in love with a defensive lineman that was able to stay on his feet. Breeland was 6-3, 285 pounds and was not strong and powerful or fast and explosive. Speaks struggled with the Chiefs and then with the Raiders, Cowboys, Giants, and Bills.

The Mecole Hardman 2019 draft happened at the same time as Tyreek Hill's domestic issues were going on. Mecole was fast, elusive, and could return punts and kickoffs as well as be a receiver. People want more from Hardman, but he has helped the Chiefs and will probably be even better in this coming season.

Brett Veach is learning and growing, and this 2022 draft will be even better.

[staylor26]

“DJ Chark signed a one-year deal for $10 million and is 10x more productive in his career”

10x more huh? That’s beyond hyperbole.

DJ Chark: 4 seasons 2,042 yards 15 TDs

MVS: 4 seasons 2,153 yards 13 TDs

Don’t get me wrong, I’d prefer Chark as well, but he was signed before Tyreek was traded.

When you realize that nobody has more 40+ yard receptions since 2018 than MVS other than Tyreek Hill, it’s really not difficult to understand why they went out and signed him when they did.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by staylor26

“DJ Chark signed a one-year deal for $10 million and is 10x more productive in his career”

10x more huh? That’s beyond hyperbole.

DJ Chark: 4 seasons 2,042 yards 15 TDs

MVS: 4 seasons 2,153 yards 13 TDs

Don’t get me wrong, I’d prefer Chark as well, but he was signed before Tyreek was traded.

When you realize that nobody has more 40+ yard receptions since 2018 than MVS other than Tyreek Hill, it’s really not difficult to understand why they went out and signed him when they did.

It is hyperbole but Chark did do the bulk of that damage in 2 seasons (126 rec 1,714 yds 13 TDs). Injuries are the reason Chark hasn't become a star. MVS has never looked anywhere near as good as healthy Chark. And you're right though, Chark was like the 1st WR signed in FA. It still shows market value though and we both know Chark has been a lot better when healthy than MVS and it isn't very close. The problem to me is MVS got a contract nearly as high as Chark's in the 1st year. I am hoping he breaks out here, he'll never have a better opportunity.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by kccrow

It is hyperbole but Chark did do the bulk of that damage in 2 seasons (126 rec 1,714 yds 13 TDs). Injuries are the reason Chark hasn't become a star. MVS has never looked anywhere near as good as healthy Chark. And you're right though, Chark was like the 1st WR signed in FA. It still shows market value though and we both know Chark has been a lot better when healthy than MVS and it isn't very close. The problem to me is MVS got a contract nearly as high as Chark's in the 1st year. I am hoping he breaks out here, he'll never have a better opportunity.

I'll quibble with you a bit here.

The problem with MVS, and the reason he got a nice deal, is that at times he HAS looked that good.

He's just such a high variance player. He can look like a potential superstar one game and a training camp cut the next. And ultimately I'm of the mind that this sort of thing stabilizes after about 50 NFL games so I think there's a pretty good chance that this is just who MVS is.

But you can actually see some real stud potential in there. There isn't a raw tool he doesn't have. Even the hands thing is overblown and based largely on one god-awful season when he clearly had a mental block (same thing Cooper went through like 4 years ago).

I think the deal is about 20% too high. And yeah, I'd have preferred Chark over MVS. But the MVS deal does have some potential upside baked into it that the Chark deal doesn't. He doesn't have to take much of a step forward to be worth next year's cap figure and hell, it's possible that year 3 figure is in play if he just finds some chemistry with Mahome.

Whereas if Chark plays well, he's going to FA. Or getting the tag.

I was hopeful the whole offseason that Veach would go out there and find young veteran players who are undervalued and sign them to 3-4 year deals with some escape hatches and MVS fits that profile perfectly. So does Reid. So does ****ing Kyzir White but we don't talk about Kyzir White.

There's a clear logic to taking MVS at 3 years over Chark at 1 and it's a logic I can get behind.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I'll quibble with you a bit here.

The problem with MVS, and the reason he got a nice deal, is that at times he HAS looked that good.

He's just such a high variance player. He can look like a potential superstar one game and a training camp cut the next. And ultimately I'm of the mind that this sort of thing stabilizes after about 50 NFL games so I think there's a pretty good chance that this is just who MVS is.

But you can actually see some real stud potential in there. There isn't a raw tool he doesn't have. Even the hands thing is overblown and based largely on one god-awful season when he clearly had a mental block (same thing Cooper went through like 4 years ago).

I think the deal is about 20% too high. And yeah, I'd have preferred Chark over MVS. But the MVS deal does have some potential upside baked into it that the Chark deal doesn't. He doesn't have to take much of a step forward to be worth next year's cap figure and hell, it's possible that year 3 figure is in play if he just finds some chemistry with Mahome.

Whereas if Chark plays well, he's going to FA. Or getting the tag.

I was hopeful the whole offseason that Veach would go out there and find young veteran players who are undervalued and sign them to 3-4 year deals with some escape hatches and MVS fits that profile perfectly. So does Reid. So does ****ing Kyzir White but we don't talk about Kyzir White.

There's a clear logic to taking MVS at 3 years over Chark at 1 and it's a logic I can get behind.

If MVS does enough to want to keep him, that deal will look like a steal in 2023.

[staylor26]

Yes, Chark has been the better player when healthy. But that is also part of the equation in terms of the contract he got. Let’s not pretend that he wouldn’t have gotten 17+ per if he weren’t coming off a serious injury with concerns about his availability.

Also, Chark was one of the very few bargains at WR this year. He was an anomaly in this WR market.

[O.city]

Would you trade 30 for Montez Sweat?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

Would you trade 30 for Montez Sweat?

{sigh}

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by O.city

Would you trade 30 for Montez Sweat?

No I would draft well and then sign that mother****er next March in FA

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

{sigh}

Originally Posted by RunKC

No I would draft well and then sign that mother****er next March in FA

They're trading one of those picks for a DE. You guys may as well prepare for it.