Chiefs Tyson Jackson says the Chiefs haven't been negotiating a contract

Xanathol · 03-04-2014, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEX

How so? Stats never tell the whole story. They're mostly used to skew a point of view. Do you happen to know when the tackles/sacks occurred? What games? Down distance? % relative to opportunities? How many downs he plays? etc.

I like the Chiefs face, sure wish they'd get a nose job...

Same can be said for every player. Example - Tamba got 7 of his 11 sacks this season vs Oakland, Houston, and Washington - teams with a combined 9 - 39 record.

TEX · 03-04-2014, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanathol

Same can be said for every player. Example - Tamba got 7 of his 11 sacks this season vs Oakland, Houston, and Washington - teams with a combined 9 - 39 record.

Not really at all. Sure if you want to pick a single game and a player to be the basis of your opinion, then maybe your logic prevails. However, compare the player you chose to Jackson across the board. See what you get. Also, compare how TJ fared against the same competition. Is he anywhere in the same ball park? Has he ever stood out? No. He's improved at what he does, but as someone said earlier his game has not evolved. He's still a 2 down player and not going to be worth the $$$ it's gonna cost to keep him. If he signs a cap friendly contract, then I'd be in favor of keeping him, but ONLY then.

Xanathol · 03-04-2014, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEX

Not really at all. Sure if you want to pick a single game and a player to be the basis of your opinion, then maybe your logic prevails. However, compare the player you chose to Jackson across the board. See what you get. Also, compare how TJ fared against the same competition. Is he anywhere in the same ball park? Has he ever stood out? No. He's improved at what he does, but as someone said earlier his game has not evolved. He's still a 2 down player and not going to be worth the $$$ it's gonna cost to keep him. If he signs a cap friendly contract, then I'd be in favor of keeping him, but ONLY then.

1. He spent most of his career two-gapping... a player who 'stands out' getting sacks like that is doing it wrong and your defense is probably suffering elsewhere.

2. Since the defense has switched to be a bit more attacking with some 1 gap play, TJ has had 3 & 4 sacks respectively - half a sack behind Poe this season and the leader in sacks last season among the Dline.

3. The past two seasons, TJ's sacks came vs Carolina (1), Cleveland (1), Washington (1), Oakland (2), Cincy (1), and Jacksonville (1). Hali's from the past two seasons came vs SD (2), Baltimore (2), Tampa (1), Cincy (1), Cleveland (2), Indy (1), Philly (1), NYG (2), Tennessee (1), Oakland (2.5), Houston (2.5), Washington (2). 25% of Hali's sacks came vs teams with combined winning records over the past two season; 14% for TJ.

4. I completely agree that the game is a lot more than the numbers, but people are insisting the lack of stats mean less worth, which is foolish, especially considering he has stats for this style of defense. The guy did well as a 2-gap DE ( as did Dorsey - he did very well ) and has been the best Dlineman on the roster the past two seasons.

TEX · 03-06-2014, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanathol

1. He spent most of his career two-gapping... a player who 'stands out' getting sacks like that is doing it wrong and your defense is probably suffering elsewhere.

2. Since the defense has switched to be a bit more attacking with some 1 gap play, TJ has had 3 & 4 sacks respectively - half a sack behind Poe this season and the leader in sacks last season among the Dline.

3. The past two seasons, TJ's sacks came vs Carolina (1), Cleveland (1), Washington (1), Oakland (2), Cincy (1), and Jacksonville (1). Hali's from the past two seasons came vs SD (2), Baltimore (2), Tampa (1), Cincy (1), Cleveland (2), Indy (1), Philly (1), NYG (2), Tennessee (1), Oakland (2.5), Houston (2.5), Washington (2). 25% of Hali's sacks came vs teams with combined winning records over the past two season; 14% for TJ.

4. I completely agree that the game is a lot more than the numbers, but people are insisting the lack of stats mean less worth, which is foolish, especially considering he has stats for this style of defense. The guy did well as a 2-gap DE ( as did Dorsey - he did very well ) and has been the best Dlineman on the roster the past two seasons.

Redirect your energy. Are you actually trying to make a case that T.J.,in his roll, is better then Hali in his??? If so, it's the PERFECT example of why stats are meaningless and how one can manipulate them to support one side of a discussion.

WhiteWhale · 03-06-2014, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanathol

1. He spent most of his career two-gapping... a player who 'stands out' getting sacks like that is doing it wrong and your defense is probably suffering elsewhere.

Ugh. It drives me crazy how people don't seem to understand that in a 2 gap defense the linemen are supposed to read pass and then rush the QB. They don't 2 gap the ****ing pocket. Guys can get sacks 2 gapping, but they can't explode into a gap off of the LOS because they have to diagnose the play first. It is not against the flippin' scheme to sack QB's. A DL getting a sack in a 2 gap defense doesn't automatically mean they ****ed up. Plus, KC has ran a 1 gap defense in several if not most sub packages as well on passing downs (because 1 gap is better at rushing the QB) and he didn't do much then either because the coaches don't want him on the field. Likely for a good reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanathol

2. Since the defense has switched to be a bit more attacking with some 1 gap play, TJ has had 3 & 4 sacks respectively - half a sack behind Poe this season and the leader in sacks last season among the Dline.

He's not a terrible player but he's totally replaceable. I don't care about sack totals as much as you probably do. Jackson does not pressure QB's and at least two of those sacks were 'bags'. He was unblocked because of a blitz. He didn't beat a linemen to get the sack. That's a scheme sack. If we pay him like the player he IS it shouldn't be a big deal. He and his agent likely will over value Jackson until he gets on the market and realizes he isn't quite worth what he thinks. Or maybe someone pays him a ton of money. Oh well. He's replaceable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanathol

3. The past two seasons, TJ's sacks came vs Carolina (1), Cleveland (1), Washington (1), Oakland (2), Cincy (1), and Jacksonville (1). Hali's from the past two seasons came vs SD (2), Baltimore (2), Tampa (1), Cincy (1), Cleveland (2), Indy (1), Philly (1), NYG (2), Tennessee (1), Oakland (2.5), Houston (2.5), Washington (2). 25% of Hali's sacks came vs teams with combined winning records over the past two season; 14% for TJ.

I really don't care about these stats so I won't comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanathol

4. I completely agree that the game is a lot more than the numbers, but people are insisting the lack of stats mean less worth, which is foolish, especially considering he has stats for this style of defense. The guy did well as a 2-gap DE ( as did Dorsey - he did very well ) and has been the best Dlineman on the roster the past two seasons.

If Jackson routinely pressured QBs and forced bad throws and early throws I'd agree that sack totals don't mean everything. When he rarely ever pressures QB's and half of his sacks are unblocked scheme sacks, then yeah... that's a problem. We have two DE's that cannot rush the QB at all. This was obvious all season long.

King_Chief_Fan · 03-11-2014, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

Ugh. It drives me crazy how people don't seem to understand that in a 2 gap defense the linemen are supposed to read pass and then rush the QB. They don't 2 gap the ****ing pocket. Guys can get sacks 2 gapping, but they can't explode into a gap off of the LOS because they have to diagnose the play first. It is not against the flippin' scheme to sack QB's. A DL getting a sack in a 2 gap defense doesn't automatically mean they ****ed up. Plus, KC has ran a 1 gap defense in several if not most sub packages as well on passing downs (because 1 gap is better at rushing the QB) and he didn't do much then either because the coaches don't want him on the field. Likely for a good reason.

He's not a terrible player but he's totally replaceable. I don't care about sack totals as much as you probably do. Jackson does not pressure QB's and at least two of those sacks were 'bags'. He was unblocked because of a blitz. He didn't beat a linemen to get the sack. That's a scheme sack. If we pay him like the player he IS it shouldn't be a big deal. He and his agent likely will over value Jackson until he gets on the market and realizes he isn't quite worth what he thinks. Or maybe someone pays him a ton of money. Oh well. He's replaceable.

I really don't care about these stats so I won't comment.

If Jackson routinely pressured QBs and forced bad throws and early throws I'd agree that sack totals don't mean everything. When he rarely ever pressures QB's and half of his sacks are unblocked scheme sacks, then yeah... that's a problem. We have two DE's that cannot rush the QB at all. This was obvious all season long.

reading stuff like this is so much better than poops threads, old white people eating at buffets and slow walking black people