St. Louis Cardinals front office under FBI investigation for hacking

[kysirsoze]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

First - short of Hamas, I'm almost certainly the most critical Cardinal fan on this board and I'm gonna guess anybody in the Cardinals thread would echo that. Fan? Yes. Homer? Get the **** outta here with that.

Second - as a fan of the team, I can actually speak intelligently to the background of some of the parties involved here - you cannot. If nothing else, Duncan's corroboration supports that point and he does have insider contacts that I do not. It provides a very feasible alternative motive for the Luhnow data hack. As the latter NYT article pointed out - why would they bother breaking into the system of the worst team in baseball who's data they already had if it wasn't expressly to spite Jeff Luhnow?

If you believe that there was a substantial competitive advantage gained here - please expound. The Cardinals almost certainly have the systems that Luhnow was incorporating at the time of the data breach. They have any of the information they would have been able to get. There's no new insight to be gleaned here had there been had they hacked any other team in baseball. This one particular GM simply had no new insight to offer them as he was running the Cardinals player procurement system for 5 years or so before he left.

There's no benefit to price enforcing on a team outside the division and again, if they used it to get a FA to sign with them, it could have only been Peralta - the only key FA signing they made in that time period. The only major trades they made were for guys like Mujica. The Astros, being in a complete rebuild, would not have been in on guys like Mujica and Peralta. They could have found out some intel on how other teams value their players but guess how else they could have found that out? Call the other teams. Those teams are going to be just as likely to feed misinformation to the Astros as they are the Cardinals. The only true 'trustworthy' intel would have been internal.

I also acknowledged that as the dust settles it could turn out that they did use this to their advantage in some instances, in which case I'll view it differently. However, right now, based on the timelines of the data leaked, this appears almost certainly to have occurred in the Spring of 2013 and maybe have impacted 2 drafts, no trades and no FA signings.

Explain how I'm being a homer here.

Had this been the Cubs, Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, D-Rays....literally ANY other team, then the motive would have been clearly competitive and the takeaway could have been far more substantial. It wasn't. My analysis is specific to this instance and the particular GM/System that was compromised. How is that hard to digest?

Personally, I think that damaging the competitive advantage of another team out of spite is just as bad for baseball as cheating for you own gain. I mean, when the leak came out it was a big embarrassment for the Astros and seemed to hurt them when it came to trade discussions. As it stands right now, barring significant new info coming to light, I think anyone who authorized/performed these invasions should be banned from the sport for life.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by kysirsoze

Personally, I think that damaging the competitive advantage of another team out of spite is just as bad for baseball as cheating for you own gain. I mean, when the leak came out it was a big embarrassment for the Astros and seemed to hurt them when it came to trade discussions. As it stands right now, barring significant new info coming to light, I think anyone who authorized/performed these invasions should be banned from the sport for life.

I suspect that's exactly what will happen. With the emphasis on baseball analytics, data security is incredibly important. I figure MLB will look to make an example of the parties involved here. Like I said, I hope it's a rogue operator or I expect the entire Cardinals front office is detonated.

As to its impact on the Astros - well it came to light in June of 2014 when they were openly tanking. You're welcome to comb that roster for anyone with substantial trade value if you'd like. They weren't going to trade anyone that was part of their rebuilding process so you're pretty much just looking at guys like Chad Qualls, who they liked enough to bring back. They got a very nice return for Jarrod Cosart - way more than I thought they should get. Scott Feldman? His contract guaranteed him $20 million...for a 31 yr old 5th starter. He has no value to speak of.

It was embarrassing for Luhnow, but I think it's pretty unlikely that it had an impact on his dealings. Hell, if anything had teams mad at him at the time, it was the Aiken debacle. He really lost a lot of face there (wholly unfairly, IMO).

[kysirsoze]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I suspect that's exactly what will happen. With the emphasis on baseball analytics, data security is incredibly important. I figure MLB will look to make an example of the parties involved here. Like I said, I hope it's a rogue operator or I expect the entire Cardinals front office is detonated.

As to its impact on the Astros - well it came to light in June of 2014 when they were openly tanking. You're welcome to comb that roster for anyone with substantial trade value if you'd like. They weren't going to trade anyone that was part of their rebuilding process so you're pretty much just looking at guys like Chad Qualls, who they liked enough to bring back. They got a very nice return for Jarrod Cosart - way more than I thought they should get. Scott Feldman? His contract guaranteed him $20 million...for a 31 yr old 5th starter. He has no value to speak of.

It was embarrassing for Luhnow, but I think it's pretty unlikely that it had an impact on his dealings. Hell, if anything had teams mad at him at the time, it was the Aiken debacle. He really lost a lot of face there (wholly unfairly, IMO).

Well I hope for y'all's sake this isn't as bad as it looks and it was some rogue dipshit. I know STL fans get tons of hate, but some of my best friends live and die with this team. This would be about the only thing that could make this Royals fans feel bad for them.

[wazu]

Originally Posted by kysirsoze

Well I hope for y'all's sake this isn't as bad as it looks and it was some rogue dipshit. I know STL fans get tons of hate, but some of my best friends live and die with this team. This would be about the only thing that could make this Royals fans feel bad for them.

Problem is, the "rogue dipshit" explanation doesn't usually fly. Even if true the public won't buy it. Cards fans will be assaulted with this story for years if not decades. It will be a giant media shadow for the remainder of this great season they are having right now.

[kysirsoze]

Originally Posted by wazu

Problem is, the "rogue dipshit" explanation doesn't usually fly. Even if true the public won't buy it. Cards fans will be assaulted with this story for years if not decades. It will be a giant media shadow for the remainder of this great season they are having right now.

That's true. I'll be honest, I'd pull it out in a pinch if a baseball discussion got heated. Of course I'm a terrible friend.

[kysirsoze]

Originally Posted by kysirsoze

That's true. I'll be honest, I'd pull it out in a pinch if I'm losing a baseball argument. Of course I'm a terrible friend.

FMP

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by wazu

Problem is, the "rogue dipshit" explanation doesn't usually fly. Even if true the public won't buy it. Cards fans will be assaulted with this story for years if not decades. It will be a giant media shadow for the remainder of this great season they are having right now.

Yes but y'see, I don't precisely give a wet shit about what the public will buy. Just as I wouldn't were I in Amnorix's shoes w/r/t the Patriots.

The public is a fickle beast that generally does resent sustained success - period. I understand that and I don't mind that. The Cardinals were nobody's darlings even before this so I don't care that this will further sully them in the eyes of the national public.

What I care about is that a front office that has excelled over the last decade or so largely because of its stability remains intact. If the rogue dipshit explanation is true, my front office remains in place and the wheels keep spinning...at least until that never-ending mass of !@#$ing Cubs premier hitting prospects runs us down. That happens regardless of whether or not 'the public will buy it'.

If 'rogue dipshit' isn't true...well damn, why couldn't this have happened a year ago so we could blow it up and steal Joe Maddon?

Besides - is there ANY outcome that's going to sate the public bloodlust here? Jesus, they could have emails from Mozeliak directing it, he could be fired on the spot and then kill himself and the national public would still laugh at the Cards misery. The Cards aren't coming out of this clear regardless of what happens so my druther's are that they at least come out of it with their front office largely intact.

[wazu]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Yes but y'see, I don't precisely give a wet shit about what the public will buy. Just as I wouldn't were I in Amnorix's shoes w/r/t the Patriots.

The public is a fickle beast that generally does resent sustained success - period. I understand that and I don't mind that. The Cardinals were nobody's darlings even before this so I don't care that this will further sully them in the eyes of the national public.

What I care about is that a front office that has excelled over the last decade or so largely because of its stability remains intact. If the rogue dipshit explanation is true, my front office remains in place and the wheels keep spinning...at least until that never-ending mass of !@#$ing Cubs premier hitting prospects runs us down. That happens regardless of whether or not 'the public will buy it'.

If 'rogue dipshit' isn't true...well damn, why couldn't this have happened a year ago so we could blow it up and steal Joe Maddon?

Besides - is there ANY outcome that's going to sate the public bloodlust here? Jesus, they could have emails from Mozeliak directing it, he could be fired on the spot and then kill himself and the national public would still laugh at the Cards misery. The Cards aren't coming out of this clear regardless of what happens so my druther's are that they at least come out of it with their front office largely intact.

I see it differently. The Cards are a proud franchise and part of that pride isn't just from winning, but from a rich culture that has always been generally admired around the country. A hit to their integrity of this magnitude is painful. Even as a Royals fan I don't want to see it. You don't want to become the Patriots. There is a lot more at stake here than just a few more good years.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by wazu

I see it differently. The Cards are a proud franchise and part of that pride isn't just from winning, but from a rich culture that has always been generally admired around the country. A hit to their integrity of this magnitude is painful. Even as a Royals fan I don't want to see it. You don't want to become the Patriots. There is a lot more at stake here than just a few more good years.

And that may be the case; but that's going to be the case either way. The damage there is done.

I'd prefer avoid the shot to the organization's prestige but I just don't see it as avoidable at this point. The Cards have combined the mortal sins of success and percieved hypocrisy. Regardless of whether or not the Cards and their fans hold themselves out as a higher, more 'pure' form of the game, there's definitely a perception that they do. And when something like this falls on their heads...well there's just not a good way to rebound without losing some shine.

[ChiTown]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I suspect that's exactly what will happen. With the emphasis on baseball analytics, data security is incredibly important. I figure MLB will look to make an example of the parties involved here. Like I said, I hope it's a rogue operator or I expect the entire Cardinals front office is detonated.

As to its impact on the Astros - well it came to light in June of 2014 when they were openly tanking. You're welcome to comb that roster for anyone with substantial trade value if you'd like. They weren't going to trade anyone that was part of their rebuilding process so you're pretty much just looking at guys like Chad Qualls, who they liked enough to bring back. They got a very nice return for Jarrod Cosart - way more than I thought they should get. Scott Feldman? His contract guaranteed him $20 million...for a 31 yr old 5th starter. He has no value to speak of.

It was embarrassing for Luhnow, but I think it's pretty unlikely that it had an impact on his dealings. Hell, if anything had teams mad at him at the time, it was the Aiken debacle. He really lost a lot of face there (wholly unfairly, IMO).

I'm good with Banning the Cardinal Franchise from post-season play for the next 5 years and reinstating Pete Rose back into baseball.