"Alex Smith makes your defense better"

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks

That's not what I was doing. I was asking for QBs that excelled (or played at a high level) while having both shit at OL and WR.

Give me a year where Ben truly excelled, and didn't have more than shit for OL and WRs.

Same for the others. That is the level of specificity I was truly hoping for.

Ben didn't really excel until 2007.. where really, the only thing he could have been said to do very well in was throwing 32 TD passes. However, he had a young and very good Santonio Holmes at that time... plus Hines Ward.. and throw in Heath Miller. The 4 yrs after 2007, he was solid but not putting up grand numbers. They drafted Mike Wallace for him in 2000, and he was great in the early years. Antonio Brown is a top 5 WR in the league... no?

Would these receivers not remove him from the list?

The players I gave are examples that fit your parameters. Roethlisberger was 23 years old when he had a QB rating of 98.6, and about a 2:1 TD:INT ratio, in 2005, and he helped his team to a Super Bowl win. ViperVisor's already shown himself to be a complete ****ing idiot. There's no need for you to join him in that.

I'm not going to play the disqualify game with you. It's embarrassing that you're even trying it.

[Sandy Vagina]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

The players I gave are examples that fit your parameters. Roethlisberger was 23 years old when he had a QB rating of 98.6, and about a 2:1 TD:INT ratio, in 2005. ViperVisor's already shown himself to be a complete ****ing idiot. There's no need for you to join him in that.

I'm not going to play the disqualify game with you. It's embarrassing that you're even trying it.

Sorry you feel that way.

So now it's about the QB rating? At 23, Ben had a pro bowl WR in Hines Ward. He had a middle of the pack OL then, and some solid players named Marvel Smith, Faneca, Hartings, Simmons, and Starks.

Ben put up 2,300 yds passing.. 17 TDs.. 10 turnovers..

Are we really going to give him massive credit for anything other than playing well with a good roster at a young age?

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks

Sorry you feel that way.

So now it's about the QB rating? At 23, Ben had a pro bowl WR in Hines Ward. He had a middle of the pack OL then, and some solid players named Marvel Smith, Faneca, Hartings, Simmons, and Starks.

Ben put up 2,300 yds passing.. 17 TDs.. 10 turnovers..

Are we really going to give him massive credit for anything other than playing well with a good roster at a young age?

Nope. The most important player on the field doesn't deserve any credit for winning 2 SB's.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks

Sorry you feel that way.

So now it's about the QB rating? At 23, Ben had a pro bowl WR in Hines Ward. He had a middle of the pack OL then, and some solid players named Marvel Smith, Faneca, Hartings, Simmons, and Starks.

Ben put up 2,300 yds passing.. 17 TDs.. 10 turnovers..

Are we really going to give him massive credit for anything other than playing well with a good roster at a young age?

This is the problem with people like you. You don't know when to just admit that a couple of guys fit the bill. That OL was not good and, as I'd noted in that earlier thread, Hines Ward was all Roethlisberger had at receiver. He led the team with 69 catches. The #2 WR was Randle El, with 35. You don't get to overrate that group when Smith's had Bowe at WR. And, yes, we're going to give the QB some credit for helping his team win the Super Bowl. That 2005 Steelers defense wasn't any kind of all-time group.

Roethlisberger fits the bill, as do Brady and Dilfer from the 2000-2015 SB span. That's just life.

[Sandy Vagina]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

This is the problem with people like you. You don't know when to just admit that a couple of guys fit the bill. That OL was not good and, as I'd noted in that earlier thread, Hines Ward was all Roethlisberger had at receiver. He led the team with 69 catches. The #2 WR was Randle El, with 35. You don't get to overrate that group when Smith's had Bowe at WR.

Roethlisberger fits the bill, as do Brady and Dilfer from the 2000-2015 SB span. That's just life.

... and I am looking for QBs that performed very well under those circumstances. Not QBs that had similar Alex-Smith like numbers.
The idea here is.. if Alex.. with a crap OL and WRs... can perform to the level he has in the last 2 years...

Surely, there must be QBs that... with a crap OL and WRs... has performed at a higher level.

... and even if I was to accept the few names you offer.. the point still stands. It's not about "oh, no one has or can ever do it." It's more about it being a very rare thing.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Originally Posted by rico

Ahhh!!!! HHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

God, Sorter is awesome.

When Sorter occasionally corrects me on football matters, I generally shut the **** up.

After thanking him of course.

[BigCatDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sweet Daddy Williams

When Sorter occasionally corrects me on football matters, I generally shut the **** up.

After thanking him of course.

That was glorious. Dude shit his pants and ignored Sorter

[Discuss Thrower]

Originally Posted by Sweet Daddy Williams

When Sorter occasionally corrects me on football matters, I generally shut the **** up.

After thanking him of course.

Sorter has the acumen and knowledge of the game to the point I'd believe it if he said there are actually 12 players allowed on the field per team.

[ViperVisor]

2009-2011 Ben had the highest sack time avg in the NFL.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/und...sack-deviation

WR crew shifted pieces in and out but they had ability.

And Heath Miller way overlooked. There every year and #1 in the NFL since 2005 out of all WR/TE in catch %.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks

... and even if I was to accept the few names you offer.. the point still stands. It's not about "oh, no one has or can ever do it." It's more about it being a very rare thing.

You're moving the goalposts to suit your needs.

This is how your phrased your argument in this thread:

You can't seem to grasp the simple conclusion that good/great QBs can overcome a deficient OL or WR group alone... but not combined... and yet you expect Alex to? That's just going full potato.

The QBs I listed clearly did that.

What you're doing is playing games with words like "excel". Sorry, QBs overcame line and WR woes in the 2000-2015 SB stretch, three of them won SBs, and one of those QBs was horseshit (and THAT's where your argument would have been more effective, rather than pointing to Roethlisberger):

"Smith is a much better QB than Dilfer ever was, and he's a better QB than Brad Johnson was, too. Smith is good enough to win a Super Bowl, if he's got a good enough team around him."

That argument has validity.

And, for the record, the basic premise that lousy OL + Lousy receivers = bad times for QBs isn't really debatable. It's when you get beyond that where things get sketchy.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower

Sorter has the acumen and knowledge of the game to the point I'd believe it if he said there are actually 12 players allowed on the field per team.

This.

"What, Pete Rose developed the on-side kick you say"?

"Okay".

[Sandy Vagina]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

You're moving the goalposts to suit your needs.

This is how your phrased your argument in this thread:

The QBs I listed clearly did that.

What you're doing is playing games with words like "excel".

Ah. I'm really not playing games with words, but yes.. I apparently have not been consistent enough with the words I used.

Go with playing at a high level, or excelling. (playing significantly better than Alex, in other words)

It's still not likely to net much of a list.. as it isn't often that a QB has BOTH a shit OL and WR group in the first place.. much less still manage to perform at an above average level.

[ViperVisor]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

The players I gave are examples that fit your parameters. Roethlisberger was 23 years old when he had a QB rating of 98.6, and about a 2:1 TD:INT ratio, in 2005, and he helped his team to a Super Bowl win. ViperVisor's already shown himself to be a complete ****ing idiot. There's no need for you to join him in that.

I'm not going to play the disqualify game with you. It's embarrassing that you're even trying it.

That is an outlier. That is the point. It's very rare they cobbled together an offense, the QB grinded it out and it worked to win games. Win in the playoffs and Win a Super Bowl.

They won reg season games with Ben passing 93 177 173 149 135

Carson Palmer blows out his knee to open the playoff game
Game saving tackle on the fumble @ Indy
Roethlisberger's lame to say the least SB game is forgotten

It's a war of attrition to win it all in the NFL. It's harder without a great QB. It's harderest when you add to scoops of lame WRs and Pass Blocking on top of that.

It's pretty obvious that is the crap Reid and Alex Smith were dealing with in 2014. The off-season made it even more obvious in what was done to change that.

Changing Alex Smith isn't happening.
Let's see what happens when a non great QB is givin a decent shot because he isn't sabotaged by a lame group of targets and a piss poor OL.

Super Bowl? I doubt it. But that's life in the NFL for most teams most.