Did y'all catch Squirmin Herman's spot on ESPN about Shady?

[Mr. Flopnuts]

He straight up went the **** off! I don't know if this happened this morning, or a couple of days ago but he lost his ****ing shit over it! It was great. I'll try and track down something I can embed into this post. For those who saw it, did you laugh, or were you almost embarrassed for the guy?

[wazu]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

- like saying the dude who was 8th to blow his load in your daughter's face in 'Bukkake Blitz 37' was the one who stole her 'honor'

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by cdcox

I want nothing to do with mediocre. If you want to defend mediocre, that's on you.

I don't. I said from the beginning Herm should have never have been hired. Just as I said I wasn't a fan of the Reid hire. I'm not defending mediocre. I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is that Herm is the most hated man on chiefsplanet. I frankly don't understand why vermeil gets a free pass considering he only made the playoffs once in 4 years and left the team a mess when he left.

[BigCatDaddy]

Herm sucked as a coach but excels at being a good human being.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

6 Excellent players
Charles, Albert, Bowe, Hali, Flowers, Carr

It's a bit of a stretch to say Flowers and Carr were excellent. I'd say they were good starters but not excellent. Flowers and Carr didn't do a whole lot (except get paid) after we dumped the Tampon 2, which is very corner friendly. But I'll let that go.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

8 Starter calibre
Babin / Gilberry, Page, Pollard, Dorsey, Wade Smith, Ron Edwards / Boone, Barth (not sure where you're getting that he's been horrible)

Babin and Gilberry never started to my knowledge. They're both pass rush specialists.

Page did ****all after he left here. He's no starter.

Dorsey never started. And don't give me the, "HE'S A 4-3 PLAYMAKER" He went to SF as a rotational guy in their 3-4. Not a starter.

Alfonso Boone was never a starter to my knowledge.

Barth was horrible HERE. Nobody cried when we replaced him with Succup. He mindbogglingly went on to be decent.

Besides that your arguement is a joke. Just because they started for a 2-14 team doesn't mean they're starter quality. If there were that many "starters" this team doesn't go 2-14.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Adequate:
Turk, Tank, Battle, Barry Richardson, Studebaker, McGraw

Ended up being good:
De la Puenta

Inherited
Waters, Gonzalez, DJ, Colquitt

Tank and Turk were horrible. Tank didn't even last 2 years after he left here despite having elite size that you can't coach.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Well, I'm glad we had a coach who was looking out for the long-term instead of trying to save his job. I honestly don't know why trying to band-aid this team yet again was even an option.

Dude, if he was half a "team builder" he could have done a hell of a lot better than he did. His big FA guy? Ron Edwards. Where are the guys that fill out a roster and produce. Where are guys like Abdula, Ron Parker, Marcus Cooper (granted Manning like killed his career), Spencer Ware and Charcandrick West, Mike DeVito, Jaye Howard, Zombo, Jah Reid? Those guys aren't making money but also aren't a complete liability. There are no team killing deals with those guys. Not using expensive FA band-aids does not equate to 2 mother****ing wins.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Fair point here. Though I disagree on how easy that actually is. Of course he's not NE or Pitt or even Dorsey. Most teams aren't that successful in the scrap haul. He failed the QB decision but at least he chose going young over the mediocre veteran

I never said it was easy. I'm saying Herm failed miserably at the most important aspect of team building after finding a signal caller.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

When you look at the actual roster, the talent wasn't terrible. We had 4 rookies starting in the secondary. We had a rookie LG starting at LT. And we had shit at QB. That'll do it to you.

No. No it does not. If there was talent, some plays would have been made. IIRC Reids first year we had a really young roster. We were playing 7 dudes that came off the waiver wire. If there was that much talent, they would have won some games. Maybe not 10, but they would have won more than 2. Young, dumb, uncoached (basically) talent can lose ballgames, but it can also win them. We didn't so much do that.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

It's not a hole in my argument. The question was if Herm wrecked the team. When Herm left, his bad coaching left too. So all we're left with is his personnel decisions.

Which were shit. If he turned over 49 positions in 3 years and came up with 13 players (your 17 less the 4 holdovers) that is Bay of Pigs bad.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Well, first, he wasn't a good HC. But he has been to 4 playoff games and won 2. So he's not nearly as bad as people say he is. I didn't like him because I thought he was a career 8-8 coach. But I'm mainly going to speak to point #5, because that's all I care about. He was not "horrible" at personnel. He wasn't elite but again, the roster was in much better shape after he left. As long as we shake the idea that winning meaningless games in 2008 should have even been in our vocabulary.

Yeah, those playoff games he went to were with Dick Vermeils players and Bill Parcells players. Once it was left to him to build a team, he didn't sniff the playoffs.

He was horrible at personnel. He managed to pick up 6 dudes above average. In three years. After completely selling out to go find talent. That is a goddamned joke.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

That roster Peterson/Vermeil left behind was a sinking ship no matter who was coaching the team. The 2-14 season was accelerated because we chose to clean up the cap and start a ton of rookies.

And yet, even after completely selling out to win in 05, there were more guys on that 05 team that played 3 years than after Herm dumped everybody and sold out to go find guys that could play.

DVs roster wasn't as bad as you remember and Herm's wasn't as good as you remember.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

There are a LOT of coaches who were a lot worse than Herm in NFL history. He gets laughed at because his mistakes were comically bad and memorable. But overall, he was a mediocre coach with a mediocre ceiling.

No. He was mediocre when using Bill Parcells guys and Dick Vermeil's guys. He was a goddamned joke when left to his own devices.

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Herm was a pretty bad coach all around, but he did two good things:

1. He took a proverbial bullet for the organization in his last year when he knew his job was on the line and he decided to give all the young guys playing time. He traded wins for experience.

2. He's the only KC head coach to attempt to draft, develop and play his own QB.

I'll say it again, playing young guys does not equate to going 2-14. Reid's team in 13 was one of the youngest in the league IIRC. Going 2-14 was failing to fill a whole pile of positions with dudes that have a pulse.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Herm was a pretty bad coach all around, but he did two good things:

1. He took a proverbial bullet for the organization in his last year when he knew his job was on the line and he decided to give all the young guys playing time. He traded wins for experience.

2. He's the only KC head coach to attempt to draft, develop and play his own QB.

This. Point number 1 can't be stressed enough.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

- like saying the dude who was 8th to blow his load in your daughter's face in 'Bukkake Blitz 37' was the one who stole her 'honor'

Your point is well taken. But under Herm's tutelage was the first time in my lifetime that the Chiefs were wholly not competitive and entered games with absolutely no chance to win. And lets not forget that the division was a joke then save for some Marty chokejobs in SD. pulling up 2 wins with your guys in 2008 was not the same as it would have been in 1999 when the whole thing was a knock out drag out.

There was a remarkable lack of success prior to Herm, but they weren't a joke until Herm. So essentially the Bukkake Blitz was initiated by Herm.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

This. Point number 1 can't be stressed enough.

Playing young dudes does not equate to 2-14. If he had built a decent team, which you are telling me is his ONLY redeeming quality, he'd have pulled probably 6-8 wins, especially with how horrible the division was at that time. Beat the Fade twice and take one from Donk at home, that's 3 wins. BUT NO. We have to give JaFatass Bustell a huge percentage of his wins and his only 4th quarter comeback by torching the DBs, which are the primary basis for your argument.

[ThaVirus]

I always like Jarrad Page. I have no idea why.

He was at least good for two games a year against Oakland.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

I always like Jarrad Page. I have no idea why.

He was at least good for two games a year against Oakland.

Aaron Brooks probably sends him hate mail every Christmas.

[Simply Red]

He'll snap eventually and kill someone.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by Simply Red

He'll snap eventually and kill someone.

Herm? Or Aaron Brooks?

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Playing young dudes does not equate to 2-14. If he had built a decent team, which you are telling me is his ONLY redeeming quality, he'd have pulled probably 6-8 wins, especially with how horrible the division was at that time. Beat the Fade twice and take one from Donk at home, that's 3 wins. BUT NO. We have to give JaFatass Bustell a huge percentage of his wins and his only 4th quarter comeback by torching the DBs, which are the primary basis for your argument.

If your benchmark is winning games. In a rebuild, it shouldn't be. There are multiple ways we could have bought our way into a few more wins including what we always do, which is buy someone else's retread QB. And again, those are band-aid moves which means we'd trudge through multiple seasons of more acceptable 6-win teams vs. ripping the band-aid off. The execution wasn't flawless. But it set up a much better situation in 2009 than you give it credit for. Terrific draft position and $57M to spend. That didn't happen by accident.

[JohnnyHammersticks]

Herm is "an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".

The line fits Herm so well, it's almost like Shakespeare had him in mind when he wrote it.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

If your benchmark is winning games. In a rebuild, it shouldn't be. There are multiple ways we could have bought our way into a few more wins including what we always do, which is buy someone else's retread QB. And again, those are band-aid moves which means we'd trudge through multiple seasons of more acceptable 6-win teams vs. ripping the band-aid off. The execution wasn't flawless. But it set up a much better situation in 2009 than you give it credit for. Terrific draft position and $57M to spend. That didn't happen by accident.

Your problem is that you think running a team with ****all for talent out and winning is a step in the right direction. It's not. If Herm was had built a decent team they'd have won 6 or so. He didn't so they won 2. And this team was not a retreat QB away from 4 more wins. They were most of a team away, save 10 or so guys that were legit NFL talent. That's on Herm.

Moreover, the #3 you are touting as a great draft position. Teams with a lot of talent don't draft high. Do you know who does? Oakland. Detroit. St Louis. And they still suck. One high draft pick and then the top of each round doesn't "fix" things. I'd much rather have a team that has some NFL depth than a top 3 pick.

Your argument for finding an elite guy at the top of the draft is a joke too. Check out the 3-10 picks from that year.

3. Tyson Jackson - horrible
4. Aaron Curry - Somehow MORE horrible than Jackson. I don't know how.
5. Sanchize - Backup on a shit team. Yay.
6. Andre Smith - middling OT. You can find those far lower than top 10.
7. Darrius Heyward-Bey. Crap WR.
8. Eugene Monroe - Middling OT. Same shit 2 picks later.
9. Raji - has been anywhere from good to horrible.
10. Crabtree - middling WR

I'm glad we were a ****ing joke to get a shot at those mother****ers. **** that shit. Losing sucks. And getting top 5 pick is bad for everyone but ****ing Indy (**** Indy).

[FloridaMan88]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

If your benchmark is winning games. In a rebuild, it shouldn't be. There are multiple ways we could have bought our way into a few more wins including what we always do, which is buy someone else's retread QB. And again, those are band-aid moves which means we'd trudge through multiple seasons of more acceptable 6-win teams vs. ripping the band-aid off. The execution wasn't flawless. But it set up a much better situation in 2009 than you give it credit for. Terrific draft position and $57M to spend. That didn't happen by accident.

If your best argument for Herm is that he left the team in good shape in 2009, then using your logic does Fat Scott deserve the same credit for how he left the Chiefs in 2013? Six Pro Bowl players, flexibility in cap space, etc.?

The Chiefs went 11-5 and to the playoffs with the roster Fat Scott left... the Chiefs went 4-12 with the roster Herm left.