Did y'all catch Squirmin Herman's spot on ESPN about Shady?

[Mr. Flopnuts]

He straight up went the **** off! I don't know if this happened this morning, or a couple of days ago but he lost his ****ing shit over it! It was great. I'll try and track down something I can embed into this post. For those who saw it, did you laugh, or were you almost embarrassed for the guy?

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Bowser

I like how chiefzilla acknowledges how Herm was never a good X's or O's kind of coach right off the bat, but goes on for over a hundred posts to defend how he didn't bring the team down.

Because when Herm left, so did his X's and O's. If you were a terrible coach but left a good situation to your successor after you left, that's not a waste of years.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

If they were in "terrific" shape they would have won more than a handful of games.

Also, I think leaving a team in good or bad shape is overrated because if you have a GM/coaching change, they are going to build their own system with their own players.

Then leaving behind a roster that isn't tied down to a bunch of overpriced veterans on uncuttable contracts, and giving the new GM $57M in monopoly to spend is terrific shape for a regime transition.

[FloridaMan88]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Because when Herm left, so did his X's and O's. If you were a terrible coach but left a good situation to your successor after you left, that's not a waste of years.

Yes it is a waste of years.

The players who had to play under Herm's incompetence don't get those years back on their careers.

[Bowser]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Because when Herm left, so did his X's and O's. If you were a terrible coach but left a good situation to your successor after you left, that's not a waste of years.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I don't have a preconceived notion that all free agency is expensive. But you can't rule out that if the Chiefs spent on long-term free agents, they could have easily added to those 17 - 25 contributors. It also allows you to buy lots of small contributors. Fasano, Schwartz, Vickerson, Branch, etc.... these guys were cheap, but they're not that cheap for a team trying to clean their cap up.

I don't think Herm was great at talent evaluation. Much credit goes to Kuharich and the scouts. But (LJ aside) he generally put the right guys over the field, insisted on a youth movement (right thing to do), and yes the decision to blow up the roster was absolutely correct and it was extremely ballsy.

My point all along is and always has been: there are a lot worse coaches than Herm, but I never wanted his 9-7 ceiling. But he made bold moves during the rebuild most coaches wouldn't, and they put the team in a good situation in 2009. You may not agree with the talent that was on there. But it was smart to show massive restrain in free agency vs. band-aiding. It was smart to clean the roster up from lots of bad contracts. It was smart to get your young guys out there early to sink or swim. Any reasonable GM should have taken that 2009 roster and immediately turned them into at least an 8-8 team. I truly believe that.

So he was horrible at X and O. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at franchise management. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at gameplanning/practices during the week. You're comfortable with that assessment.

You and I agree to disagree on how much actual talent was here when he was done. I'm cool with that.

You fully acknowledge that Kuharich et. al. had at least some of the responsibility for bringing the talent that ended up here in.

So you're whole argument for telling me it is absurd that he wrecked the franchise because he had the balls to play the young kids? That's it?

Wow. OK.

Herm's horrible. He wrecked the franchise.

Lots of teams have massive roster turnover without playing like 7th graders. He flubbed it up bad. But I guess kudo's for bucking the King Carl trend.

[lewdog]

Holy shit, this argument is still going today for pages and pages!

Who knew Herm did the dirty with Buehler's wife!?!?

[tk13]

Well this is an impressively long argument. I actually do think Herm and Kuharich had some real nice hits in the draft. And he somehow won the struggle with Carl to make this team younger. We weren't quite the salary cap disaster that this thread paints it as... but Herm did turn the roster over and make it younger.

Herm probably took over a team in better shape than Vermeil did, even though we didn't draft very well under Vermeil... both him and Carl were basically going for it. Carl should not have survived to see another coach. When Vermeil took over we were really in a bad cap situation... all kinds of dead money from Dan Williams, Carlton Gray, etc. Vermeil even said if he knew what terrible shape this franchise was in, he probably wouldn't have taken the job. Him and Saunders cleaned a lot of that mess out and built a great offense on the cheap. Obviously not the same with the defense. But when Herm took over we were just getting old.

Although I've always said I think both DV and Herm were undercut by Carl... especially by forcing Gunther on both of them. Wasted 5 years trying to relive the glory days, and as soon as both coaches were fired Gunther chucked them both right under the bus. Real nice work.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by lewdog

Holy shit, this argument is still going today for pages and pages!

Who knew Herm did the dirty with Buehler's wife!?!?

Not the wife. Although she hates him probably more than I do. Herm ****ed my soul for the game. He killed a shitton of interest in the game because we were a ****ing joke. Dudes show up to arrowhead whip that pussy for a half and get a chance to rest the starters. Pioli went ahead and pissed on the grave of my fandom but for the first time in my life the Chiefs entered games with no chance to win or even be competitive.

Herm took a franchise you could root for and have a chance at doing something and turned it into a ****ing joke. And somehow miraculously parlayed that into an analyst career. One in which he's constantly a ****ing clown schtick. And then berates mither****er a for not being professional.

**** Herm.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

So he was horrible at X and O. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at franchise management. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at gameplanning/practices during the week. You're comfortable with that assessment.

He isn't as bad as haters want him to be. I don't care how talented your roster is, you don't make that many playoff games by accident. But his ceiling was 9-7 which is unacceptable to me.

You and I agree to disagree on how much actual talent was here when he was done. I'm cool with that.

You fully acknowledge that Kuharich et. al. had at least some of the responsibility for bringing the talent that ended up here in.

So you're whole argument for telling me it is absurd that he wrecked the franchise because he had the balls to play the young kids? That's it?

Wow. OK.

Yes, it's absurd to say a guy who inherited a hot mess then left the team on a clean slate "wrecked the franchise." And yes, I think it is a complete misrepresentation to say he took a playoff team and turned them into a 2-14 squad. That lets Vermeil completely off the hook and Vermeil is by far the bigger culprit for the mess between 2006-2008 than Herm was.

Herm's horrible. He wrecked the franchise.

Lots of teams have massive roster turnover without playing like 7th graders. He flubbed it up bad. But I guess kudo's for bucking the King Carl trend.

No, they don't. Not like the Chiefs had. The Chiefs had the oldest roster in football and they tried to salvage it by loading the team up with tons and tons of credit card debt. The drafting under Lynn Stiles during the Vermeil era was arguably the worst in the NFL during that time. Oldest team in football. Years of cap hell. A ridiculously shitty pipeline of young players after years and years of failed drafts. This was the perfect storm of shit.

[WhiteWhale]

Herm was a guy who scapegoated everyone around him and always spotlighted himself.

When Herm left KC they were one of the least talented teams in the league. He had enough time. I can't believe people here are still defending him.

I don't want to hear about the 2008 draft, which was one of the deepest pools of talent to come around... AND he had bonus picks because of the Allen trade. Even a semi-competent guy nets 2-3 quality players with a dozen picks that year. Charles had a first round grade from a lot of teams. He fell into our lap.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

He isn't as bad as haters want him to be. I don't care how talented your roster is, you don't make that many playoff games by accident. But his ceiling was 9-7 which is unacceptable to me.

You said he was a junk coach, but he brought in good guys so he was a pass. I finally get you to see that the roster wasn't talented and now he's a good coach again? No he was a good coach because Waters was still there and he hadn't killed LJ yet. Until he did, but whatever, you said he was bad at coaching, so cool I guess.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Yes, it's absurd to say a guy who inherited a hot mess then left the team on a clean slate "wrecked the franchise." And yes, I think it is a complete misrepresentation to say he took a playoff team and turned them into a 2-14 squad. That lets Vermeil completely off the hook and Vermeil is by far the bigger culprit for the mess between 2006-2008 than Herm was.

I didn't say he took a playoff squad and turned them into 2-14 (even though he did). I never said Vermeil was bad. You started the comparisons to Vermeil. I merely discovered that he had far more guys that played 3 additional years than Herm did.

What I said was he took a proud competitive franchise and turned it into a joke. If you don't think the Thigpistol and the D that yielded 4 ****ing sacks is not a joke, then you have a very serious sense of humor.

And you're going to put 08 on Vermeil? There weren't even any of his dudes left. They were all Herm's dudes. And they had some money so don't run that cap shit at me again.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

No, they don't. Not like the Chiefs had. The Chiefs had the oldest roster in football and they tried to salvage it by loading the team up with tons and tons of credit card debt. The drafting under Lynn Stiles during the Vermeil era was arguably the worst in the NFL during that time. Oldest team in football. Years of cap hell. A ridiculously shitty pipeline of young players after years and years of failed drafts. This was the perfect storm of shit.

Yes. Yes they do. Remember the Steelers being OLD AS ****. Then they built a defense. Then they drafted Ben. Then they won Super Bowls. Then they got old as **** again. Now their defense isn't stellar but they're all over the Super Bowl radar because Ben rapes faces. Never even got close to 2-14.

Remember how old the Cheatriots were after Moss and company left? They got real young real fast and didn't shit the ****ing bed.

Hell even the Ravens who were old as **** are currently 4-9. And Flacco died. And Suggs Died. And Steve Smith died. But still they're not even done and they still managed twice as many wins as Herm's boys.

Remember when Harbitch made the 9ers young? They went....oh that's right. They never sucked shit. And they were a true tire fire. And you can't run the "But they haz QB." shit at me.

Remember when the Giants were old after they won a super bowl? They were old as ****. Where was their 2 win year?

Bottom line: YOU DON'T HAVE TO SUCK TO TURN IT AROUND.

[CoMoChief]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Because when Herm left, so did his X's and O's. If you were a terrible coach but left a good situation to your successor after you left, that's not a waste of years.

LOL what?

Regardless if you're in a "rebuilding mode", your ultimate goal as a franchise is to (every season) compete to win for a SB. Herm's teams never did that outside of backing into the playoffs in 2006. That team was a fraud standing on it's last legs from an old previous aging regime, only to completely implode in the playoffs. If you're not good enough to make the post-season dance, then at least you see progress in the team from season to season. Under Herm there was literally no progression.

Even though Herm landed a handful of good draft picks (Hali, Bowe, Charles, Flowers, Carr, Albert) his teams collectively got worse and worse each year. And that's not even remotely debatable.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by CoMoChief

LOL what?

Regardless if you're in a "rebuilding mode", your ultimate goal as a franchise is to (every season) compete to win for a SB. Herm's teams never did that outside of backing into the playoffs in 2006. That team was a fraud standing on it's last legs from an old previous aging regime, only to completely implode in the playoffs. If you're not good enough to make the post-season dance, then at least you see progress in the team from season to season. Under Herm there was literally no progression.

Even though Herm landed a handful of good draft picks (Hali, Bowe, Charles, Flowers, Carr, Albert) his teams collectively got worse and worse each year. And that's not even remotely debatable.

It is seriously astounding to me that people on here can't see that the team post vermeil needed to be blown up.

That team had to get worse to get better.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

It is seriously astounding to me that people on here can't see that the team post vermeil needed to be blown up.

That team had to get worse to get better.

Where in the actual **** did I ever say that we could just roll on with Vermeil's guys?

FFS every coaching or GM change comes with significant turnover. It was going to happen anyway. And yes, the cap wasn't spectacular.

But to sit here and defend Herm for that abortion he ran out there is a ****ing joke. 2-14 is never acceptable. If 2-14 happens it means there was a system wide disaster. It happened with Herm and it happened with Pioli. Just a ****ing massive catastrophe.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Where in the actual **** did I ever say that we could just roll on with Vermeil's guys?

FFS every coaching or GM change comes with significant turnover. It was going to happen anyway. And yes, the cap wasn't spectacular.

But to sit here and defend Herm for that abortion he ran out there is a ****ing joke. 2-14 is never acceptable. If 2-14 happens it means there was a system wide disaster. It happened with Herm and it happened with Pioli. Just a ****ing massive catastrophe.

No, this wasn't any usual turnover. This was Dan Snyder like cap mismanagement.

Again, we had the NFL's oldest roster. By a mile. We had the worst pipeline of young players due to being the worst drafting team in the vermeil years. By a mile. And we made the problem worse because we kept borrowing future money to try to force a run in 2005. You can't compare this to an ordinary transition.

There are two things that could have salvaged respectability. We should have blown it up in 2006. And you seem to think we should have spent in 2008 to start building the roster - - fair point but I completely disagree.