Squirmin Herman on ESPN radio trashing Fishers offense

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Not everyone here likes Herm. For good reason. But I know even the biggest Herm haters mostly recognize that the team Herm inherited... there was no choice but to wrecking ball that shit. Not fix it. Blow it up to smithereens and start over.

Herm didn't inherit a mediocre to average team as much as you want to say it. He inherited a team of grossly overpaid, expensive but uncuttable geriatrics. A better coach could have gotten more out of them than Herm did in year 1 (though getting to the playoffs behind Damon Huard is much better than some coaches would do). But after that year or 2, not even Bill Bellichick could have saved this team quickly. You act as if he inherited a workable team then crushed it. He inherited a team that was 1 snowball away from an avalanche.

And the Chiefs didn't just "pay for old guys" during the Vermeil era. They stockpiled on old veterans. Gave old veterans like Wesley and Woods enormous long-term deals that handcuffed them WAY beyond their prime. And to afford their drunk spending binge, they restructured the living hell out of contracts like Trent Green and Priest Holmes to the point where they were exploding back-end timebombs. It was a perfect storm that came from a GM intent on milking that team dry for 2 last playoff runs in 2004 and 2005. This was not just some ordinary cap purge. This was the Titanic. Not only were they $25M over the cap (remember... this was 10 years ago -- that is enormous), they were badly handcuffed to unworkable contracts.

You are still totally missing the point. You can deflect blame to Vermiel all you want but the bottom line is the dudes Herm brought in were trash. Sure he couldn't go bring in Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison for the offense and Ed Reed and Ray Lewis for the defense but that does not excuse the trash he brought in.

For ****s sake, Dorsey brought in six guys off the waiver wire that got meaningful snaps on a playoff team. Just because you aren't in the market for marquee free agents does not excuse bringing in absolute ****ing trash players that no GM of any team wants.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

You are still totally missing the point. You can deflect blame to Vermiel all you want but the bottom line is the dudes Herm brought in were trash. Sure he couldn't go bring in Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison for the offense and Ed Reed and Ray Lewis for the defense but that does not excuse the trash he brought in.

For ****s sake, Dorsey brought in six guys off the waiver wire that got meaningful snaps on a playoff team. Just because you aren't in the market for marquee free agents does not excuse bringing in absolute ****ing trash players that no GM of any team wants.

I never said herm was a personnel genius. I thought he was solid but unspectacular. Thats different from trash.

It takes an elite personnel guy to build off a bare roster using only draft picks and pulling everything from the scrap heap. So if that's the knock on him, that's really unfair expectations. Herm made the right call to demolish the roster. He and kuharich were pretty effective in drafting (brought in more talent in 3 years than Pioli did in 4 yrs...vermeil in 5yrs). And while he didn't bring in much free agent talent, he also purposely chose not to and deserves credit for his restraint.

I'm not comparing herm with the best. But you're comparing him to the worst, and that just aient. I'm not missing the point at all. I don't believe bandaiding the roster was even an option. So if the only option is to build through the draft and the scrap pile, I recognize that that is going to be a lot longer and more difficult process to find talent than if you binged on proven free agents or inherited a mega roster from your predecessor.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I never said herm was a personnel genius. I thought he was solid but unspectacular. Thats different from trash.

It takes an elite personnel guy to build off a bare roster using only draft picks and pulling everything from the scrap heap. So if that's the knock on him, that's really unfair expectations. Herm made the right call to demolish the roster. He and kuharich were pretty effective in drafting (brought in more talent in 3 years than Pioli did in 4 yrs...vermeil in 5yrs). And while he didn't bring in much free agent talent, he also purposely chose not to and deserves credit for his restraint.

I'm not comparing herm with the best. But you're comparing him to the worst, and that just aient. I'm not missing the point at all. I don't believe bandaiding the roster was even an option. So if the only option is to build through the draft and the scrap pile, I recognize that that is going to be a lot longer and more difficult process to find talent than if you binged on proven free agents or inherited a mega roster from your predecessor.

Dude. You are misremembering. It's late and I have to be out early tomorrow but dig up the thread the last time we debated this. He'll look it up yourself, the roster when he was done was a joke. Making the call to blow it up is one thing actually doing it in an effective manner is quite another. Herm was like a bear cub playing with his dick. He was a total and abject failure. He had a handful of good players after 3 years!

It's insane. Give it up.

I'm off to bed.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Dude. You are misremembering. It's late and I have to be out early tomorrow but dig up the thread the last time we debated this. He'll look it up yourself, the roster when he was done was a joke. Making the call to blow it up is one thing actually doing it in an effective manner is quite another. Herm was like a bear cub playing with his dick. He was a total and abject failure. He had a handful of good players after 3 years!

It's insane. Give it up.

I'm off to bed.

I posted the roster above. But I'll do it for you. He brought in Charles, Albert, flowers, carr, Hali, bowe, glenn Dorsey, Barry Richardson, Wade Smith, Ron Edwards, pollard, page. That is more than a handful. 7 of those guys started for many years. Richardson, Smith, Dorsey, page, Edwards were adequate enough to start.

That's while spending barely any new money on free agents. Even a good game is lucky to hit on one quality scrap haul player and landing 3 quality players in one draft is considered excellent. Over 3 years, that's 12 players.

But you keep comparing him to either elite gms or gms who spend a shit load of money on free agents. And most of those gms, by the way, are building rosters that probably have more than half of their starting roster already set with decent enough talent. Herm spent virtually no money and within 3 years, only had 1/4 of vermeils roster worth keeping.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I posted the roster above. But I'll do it for you. He brought in Charles, Albert, flowers, carr, Hali, bowe, glenn Dorsey, Barry Richardson, Wade Smith, Ron Edwards, pollard, page. That is more than a handful. 7 of those guys started for many years. Richardson, Smith, Dorsey, page, Edwards were adequate enough to start.

That's while spending barely any new money on free agents. Even a good game is lucky to hit on one quality scrap haul player and landing 3 quality players in one draft is considered excellent. Over 3 years, that's 12 players.

But you keep comparing him to either elite gms or gms who spend a shit load of money on free agents. And most of those gms, by the way, are building rosters that probably have more than half of their starting roster already set with decent enough talent. Herm spent virtually no money and within 3 years, only had 1/4 of vermeils roster worth keeping.

Jesus ****ing Christ. Page was trash after we cut him. Pollard did OK but was always garbage in coverage. Wade Smith was bleh. Richardson was garbage. Did he even get another job? Ron Edwards did ****all after we let him go.

That's 11 guys and half of them are depth at best. Way to go man. That's ****ing 20%. He had 3 years, 159 roster spots to work with that you can roll each week for 16 games. Not to mention the opportunity to bring in HUNDREDS of guys to look at at camps and workouts and he came up with ****ing ELEVEN? **** man. That's a joke.

And I'm not comparing him to elite dudes. If he's literally HORRIBLE at everything and you're grandstanding him as just what the Chiefs needed he better come up with more than 20% of a ****ing team. That's abysmal.

[notorious]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Jesus ****ing Christ. Page was trash after we cut him. Pollard did OK but was always garbage in coverage. Wade Smith was bleh. Richardson was garbage. Did he even get another job? Ron Edwards did ****all after we let him go.

That's 11 guys and half of them are depth at best. Way to go man. That's ****ing 20%. He had 3 years, 159 roster spots to work with that you can roll each week for 16 games. Not to mention the opportunity to bring in HUNDREDS of guys to look at at camps and workouts and he came up with ****ing ELEVEN? **** man. That's a joke.

And I'm not comparing him to elite dudes. If he's literally HORRIBLE at everything and you're grandstanding him as just what the Chiefs needed he better come up with more than 20% of a ****ing team. That's abysmal.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by notorious

Nah. He will be right back here to say that Vermiel had it SOOOO screwed up that it's not possible to assemble more than 20% of a team in 1,000 days.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Jesus ****ing Christ. Page was trash after we cut him. Pollard did OK but was always garbage in coverage. Wade Smith was bleh. Richardson was garbage. Did he even get another job? Ron Edwards did ****all after we let him go.

That's 11 guys and half of them are depth at best. Way to go man. That's ****ing 20%. He had 3 years, 159 roster spots to work with that you can roll each week for 16 games. Not to mention the opportunity to bring in HUNDREDS of guys to look at at camps and workouts and he came up with ****ing ELEVEN? **** man. That's a joke.

And I'm not comparing him to elite dudes. If he's literally HORRIBLE at everything and you're grandstanding him as just what the Chiefs needed he better come up with more than 20% of a ****ing team. That's abysmal.

How many draft picks + scrap haul free agents did Dick Vermeil bring in in 5 years? How about Scott Pioli in 4 years? It was less than what Herm brought in in 3 years. Go ahead and look it up. I don't know what your expectation is for how many players get plucked from the draft and scrap haul. Usually 3 from the draft and 1 or 2 from the scrap haul per year, and that's considered a good year. And don't compare him to a guy like Dorsey, who's been excellent at building scrap haul. Most teams build the back-end of their roster through years upon year and years of roster development.

The difference is... these guys were trying to build to win. Herm was trying to clean up the roster. We went from a $25M overage to $50M under in just 3 years. That's a $75M payroll swing.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Jesus ****ing Christ. Page was trash after we cut him. Pollard did OK but was always garbage in coverage. Wade Smith was bleh. Richardson was garbage. Did he even get another job? Ron Edwards did ****all after we let him go.

That's 11 guys and half of them are depth at best. Way to go man. That's ****ing 20%. He had 3 years, 159 roster spots to work with that you can roll each week for 16 games. Not to mention the opportunity to bring in HUNDREDS of guys to look at at camps and workouts and he came up with ****ing ELEVEN? **** man. That's a joke.

And I'm not comparing him to elite dudes. If he's literally HORRIBLE at everything and you're grandstanding him as just what the Chiefs needed he better come up with more than 20% of a ****ing team. That's abysmal.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Jesus ****ing Christ. Page was trash after we cut him. Pollard did OK but was always garbage in coverage. Wade Smith was bleh. Richardson was garbage. Did he even get another job? Ron Edwards did ****all after we let him go.

That's 11 guys and half of them are depth at best. Way to go man. That's ****ing 20%. He had 3 years, 159 roster spots to work with that you can roll each week for 16 games. Not to mention the opportunity to bring in HUNDREDS of guys to look at at camps and workouts and he came up with ****ing ELEVEN? **** man. That's a joke.

And I'm not comparing him to elite dudes. If he's literally HORRIBLE at everything and you're grandstanding him as just what the Chiefs needed he better come up with more than 20% of a ****ing team. That's abysmal.

So your standard is roster spots? Because it sure sounds like you're scrutinizing starters. You realize every roster has 10-20 spots reserved for players who'd be garbage in a starting role? And role players like STs? Ok, by that standard, we filled out half of a starting lineup and easily over 25% of a standard roster. Notice that the total payroll for all of these guys probably averaged less than $1M.

Indisputable Starters (7):
Dwayne Bowe
Bernard Pollard
Brandon Carr
Brandon Flowers
Tamba Hali
Jamaal Charles
Brandon Albert

Good enough to start (4)
Glenn Dorsey
Demorrio Williams
Ron Edwards
Wade Smith

Roster role players (2):
Connor Barth
Thomas Gafford

Became solid players (2)
Dmitri Patterson
Wallace Gilberry
Jason Babin

Decent roster depth (1):
John McGraw

Back of roster guys (4):
Jarrad Page
Tyler Thigpen (backup QB)
Turk McBride
Barry Richardson