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Old 11-21-2018, 12:19 AM  
Buehler445 Buehler445 is offline
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Paying Fools Top Tier Contracts

There is a lot of talk here about paying our guys. I have significant reservations about paying fools top tier contracts outside of QB. No, it isn't shell shock from Berry/Houston. A lot of thought has went into my position. There is a hell of a lot of nuance with contract structure, age, the player, etc., but the bottom line is that it is unlikely that dudes under big contracts will account for enough production that equates to winning games to justify the contracts.

I am and have been a production per unit salary cap guy and I just don't see it with the top tier contracts. Let's look through the top 5 contracts at various positions. All numbers from overthecap.com.

RB
Spoiler!


Pretty unanimous that RBs aren't worth the money. I'd agree looking at this. In a big game, Rams went away from Gurley. Arizona, Atlanta, Buffalo, and NY are all missing the playoffs and these guys look to be doing NOTHING to contribute to wins. I like Hunt, but looking at this list, Yuck.

WR
Spoiler!


There are some good arguments for these guys. Steelers arenít the same when Brown is out. DeAndre Hopkins is really good and does a lot of bailing out of Watson. Cooks is contributing. I donít want him for that coin, but heís a good player on a good team. OBJ though, Christ the Giants are bad and he is definitely not carrying much of a load in terms of wins. TB is a joke and Evans is not good. OBJ is definitely one of the top guys and if he can peel off that much AND the team be THAT bad, how much is he contributing to wins? Iím not sure I want to be in that game. Reek is other worldly, but 20M/100M? For a speed guy? Man, I donít know.

DL
Spoiler!


That list is a little weird with 2 guys on the tag. Donald and Cox are good but 100M?! Yeesh. And Watt is another guy who is good but is hurt all the time. I love Chris Jones, but II think we all saw heís not Donald, and heís probably not Watt. I donít think I want him up there.

Pass Rush
Spoiler!


We all know the Justin Houston story. Mack is lighting the world on fire, but it is year 1. Von Douche is good but he ainít carrying shit these days. Vernon is another mother****er who obviously isnít contributing shit to wins on that **** of a Giants team. Same with Jones in Arizona. I like Jones, but theyíre obviously not winning because of him. I am most certainly NOT looking to make Dee Ford paid like one of these dudes.

Corner
Spoiler!


I donít I want Nelson to be up there. These numbers are more palatable, but Nelson really isnít very good.

Iíd argue that paying guys top contracts donít work out. Other than QB. If you have a top flight QB, you hold on to him. But when you look through this list and objectively think about what these guys contribute in terms of wins, I donít see it.

Thatís not to say donít pay anybody anything. Obviously that wonít work, but top tier contracts rarely work out. Iíd probably rather pay a dude like Scandrick than Trumaine Johnson. I mean, yeah, if these guys walk (and they will in all likelihood) for this kind of money, it will suck, but we are in cap hell because of bad contracts Ė contracts that donít provide good production per unit Salary Cap.

My opinion: Offer these guys middling reasonable contracts Ė maybe guarantee more of it, but I donít want these giant contracts.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:16 AM   #76
Buehler445 Buehler445 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy 6 View Post
I cant buy any kind of Hill/OBJ comparisons, OBJ doesnt have the same level of drive and commitment to his craft as Hill does, in my estimation

Then of course we can always point to what a turd OBJ has apparently been behind the scenes... something thats never been a problem for Hill
He was a BIGGER turd before they gave him the big money.

And try hard doesnít account for much in terms of production. Part of the reason OBJ hasnít improved as much as Hill is because Hill was a RB. The poster that brought up locking him up BEFORE he reaches his zenith is valid.

But letís be real here. I want to **** punt OBJ as much as the next guy. I think heís a piece of shit that if we had that contract out Iíd be concerned about him going off the rails TO style. All that being said, the talent is there. He has scored an absurd amount of TDs off slant patterns. Heís good down field but he got that jack because he is (or maybe was - Iím not watching those abortions of Giants game) unguardable in the short game. That short area quickness and top end speed - even if it isnít hill speed is nuts. The talent is legit and the production was there. He earned the contract. But that doesnt mean the giants should have paid it.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:19 AM   #77
Simply Red Simply Red is offline
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Scandrick will be gone - he gets exposed against great receivers, he's serviceable, otherwise. He will get a job, but I don't want to keep him. (& to be fair, I like him okay)

Sammy will be gone after next season, no way around that, I don't think.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:23 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Buehler445 View Post
He was a BIGGER turd before they gave him the big money.

And try hard doesnít account for much in terms of production. Part of the reason OBJ hasnít improved as much as Hill is because Hill was a RB. The poster that brought up locking him up BEFORE he reaches his zenith is valid.

But letís be real here. I want to **** punt OBJ as much as the next guy. I think heís a piece of shit that if we had that contract out Iíd be concerned about him going off the rails TO style. All that being said, the talent is there. He has scored an absurd amount of TDs off slant patterns. Heís good down field but he got that jack because he is (or maybe was - Iím not watching those abortions of Giants game) unguardable in the short game. That short area quickness and top end speed - even if it isnít hill speed is nuts. The talent is legit and the production was there. He earned the contract. But that doesnt mean the giants should have paid it.
He's also playing with washed ass Eli.

As much as I love Tyreek, he's playing with a QB that literally might have a cannon attached to his right arm. You couldn't really design a better QB to play to Hills strengths
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:29 AM   #79
Easy 6 Easy 6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buehler445 View Post
He was a BIGGER turd before they gave him the big money.

And try hard doesnít account for much in terms of production. Part of the reason OBJ hasnít improved as much as Hill is because Hill was a RB. The poster that brought up locking him up BEFORE he reaches his zenith is valid.

But letís be real here. I want to **** punt OBJ as much as the next guy. I think heís a piece of shit that if we had that contract out Iíd be concerned about him going off the rails TO style. All that being said, the talent is there. He has scored an absurd amount of TDs off slant patterns. Heís good down field but he got that jack because he is (or maybe was - Iím not watching those abortions of Giants game) unguardable in the short game. That short area quickness and top end speed - even if it isnít hill speed is nuts. The talent is legit and the production was there. He earned the contract. But that doesnt mean the giants should have paid it.
Not long after they paid him, during the Giants early struggles, he went behind his teams back to the press questioning whether or not he should've come back to NY

Calling out Eli, his coaches etc... they'd just given him a bajillion dollars, and that was the thanks they got, it was ridiculous

He surely has talent, but I'd still say he doesnt have the same level of dedication, or team first attitude as Hill
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:45 AM   #80
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Idk fellas, this stuff is all fun to talk about but at the end of the day it’s out of our control and we’ve got a great season rolling.

We’ve got one of the most explosive offenses the league has ever seen, and we can rush the passer with the front four as good as anybody. It’s a great, great combination to have.

This could finally be the year.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:47 AM   #81
Valiant Valiant is offline
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As years go by the contracts would not hurt as much for guys like hill.

I would pay hill, mahomes and Jones.

If I could talk them into a group discount I would see if they would do it. Give them cheaper years but add in incentive bonuses. That way if they drop off it lessens what we pay them in later years.

Ford I would tag. My gut is telling me we will have another Houston after he gets paid. Transition allows us to match. Franchise if we want to try one more year or trade.

I also want us to switch to 4 3.

As for hunt. He is good but his style won't last the contract. Elite guys are worth it still IMO if you don't have a qb. Amazing when you do like gurley.
Hell I think new England makes a play if bell hits free agency. Not at his contract demand though.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:49 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy 6 View Post
I cant buy any kind of Hill/OBJ comparisons, OBJ doesnt have the same level of drive and commitment to his craft as Hill does, in my estimation

Then of course we can always point to what a turd OBJ has apparently been behind the scenes... something thats never been a problem for Hill
Wouldn't it really suck if Hill became a huge asshole after he got paid and this whole time he's been putting on a show, because he knew he wouldn't get paid if he didn't keep his shit together. I'm pretty positive that won't happen, but money makes people do weird things.

Now I don't want one of you asshole idiots that thinks they have to take every thing serious coming in here calling me an idiot, because like I said I don't think it will happen. I'd just in a sad way think it was kinda funny.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:55 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Valiant View Post
As years go by the contracts would not hurt as much for guys like hill.

I would pay hill, mahomes and Jones.

If I could talk them into a group discount I would see if they would do it. Give them cheaper years but add in incentive bonuses. That way if they drop off it lessens what we pay them in later years.

Ford I would tag. My gut is telling me we will have another Houston after he gets paid. Transition allows us to match. Franchise if we want to try one more year or trade.

I also want us to switch to 4 3.

As for hunt. He is good but his style won't last the contract. Elite guys are worth it still IMO if you don't have a qb. Amazing when you do like gurley.
Hell I think new England makes a play if bell hits free agency. Not at his contract demand though.
I think the problem with basing contracts on incentives is that most guys aren't going to go for that. They know that production can just fall off a cliff no matter how hard they try. They also know players get hurt all the damn time and if they get hurt they can't hit their incentives. The players only care about what they are guaranteed.

The only way I could see the players being ok with incentives is if those incentives are extremely high, but still they know their health isn't guaranteed.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:55 AM   #84
Buehler445 Buehler445 is offline
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Originally Posted by O.city View Post
He's also playing with washed ass Eli.

As much as I love Tyreek, he's playing with a QB that literally might have a cannon attached to his right arm. You couldn't really design a better QB to play to Hills strengths
Yeah. Eli is horribad. But even last season he was just housing ****ers on slants. Literally nobody does that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy 6 View Post
Not long after they paid him, during the Giants early struggles, he went behind his teams back to the press questioning whether or not he should've come back to NY

Calling out Eli, his coaches etc... they'd just given him a bajillion dollars, and that was the thanks they got, it was ridiculous

He surely has talent, but I'd still say he doesnt have the same level of dedication, or team first attitude as Hill
Oh yeah he was a ****. But he was throwing such a goddamned fit with 2 damn years left on his contract I would have thrown him on the street.

God he was a ****.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:23 PM   #85
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Good info. Thanks.

Brady At 14M. Christ. Hopefully Clark does the same sweetheart deal for Pat.
Pat needs to set up side businesses for a Clark to funnel the rest of his pay through.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:43 PM   #86
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Man, Iím getting tired of saying this but it has to be said again.......

the Chiefs have an option year in 2021 to keep Mahomes on his rookie contract. It was a 5 year contract if the Chiefs want that option year.
You aren't telling anyone anything they don't know. So you can quit repeating yourself.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:43 PM   #87
Buehler445 Buehler445 is offline
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Pat needs to set up side businesses for a Clark to funnel the rest of his pay through.
**** man if thatís all it takes, Iíll do it. I can have an EIN in an hour.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:46 PM   #88
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Pat needs to set up side businesses for a Clark to funnel the rest of his pay through.
They should be pouring concrete for a ketchup factory as we speak.

Arrowhead vendors could use A LOT of ketchup. If fans knew Ketchup was keeping Mahomes in town on a Brady type of dynasty deal they'd be drinking ketchup flavored beer by the buckets and packing their pockets full of packets from every vendor in the place.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:51 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Easy 6 View Post
I cant buy any kind of Hill/OBJ comparisons, OBJ doesnt have the same level of drive and commitment to his craft as Hill does, in my estimation

Then of course we can always point to what a turd OBJ has apparently been behind the scenes... something thats never been a problem for Hill
So true OBJ reminds me of a more talented D. Bowe in fact this thread reminds me of the pay Bowe threads of past.

The difference is Reek put in the work in off season and made himself into a wide receiver not just a gimmick. Dedication deserves to be rewarded Reek gets his. Players like Bowe never put in the work and yet got rewarded.

Lock in Hill as leagues highest paid receiver and cross your fingers on his health he will reward us years to come.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:04 PM   #90
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Sucks we can't keep all our stars, just wont happen. It looks like 2019 is our shot if we fall short this year. After that we start losing a few.
And replacing them with younger explosive talent.
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