***Official Defense thread***

[-King-]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Are you trolling us? Now, you want to fire Veach? The person most responsible for getting us our football savior? Really?

You realize we draft at the bottom of every round these days?

Mahomes is the only pick in NFL history where people credit his scout for scouting him rather than the GM and coach who actually drafted him.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by -King-

Mahomes is the only pick in NFL history where people credit his scout for scouting him rather than the GM and coach who actually drafted him.

For good reason.

[-King-]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

For good reason.

Not really it's just mental gymnastics to credit Veach and discredit Dorsey.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by -King-

Not really it's just mental gymnastics to credit Veach and discredit Dorsey.

Unfortunately, that inability to appreciate the nuance is what leads to so many overreactions in the first place.

Veach becomes the GM and the Chiefs have success that first year= Veach is a God among men and should receive all credit for every success and no criticism for any failure. This leads to people overvaluing trades for players like Clark, which was a significant outlay of draft capital for the right to pay someone a big salary, and assuming that players like Edwards-Helaire and Hardman are plug-and-play All Pros.

It's no different than people treating Chris Jones like he's the greatest pass rusher of all-time in 2018 when he was simultaneously a massive liability against the run.

When things are going well everything and everyone is a GOAT. When a few bad weeks hit, the team is full of JAGs and the GM is a fraud. The truth is always between the poles.

Dorsey's significant errors in roster construction were overlooked while wins were coming in, but it doesn't mean they weren't present. As soon as he left, his scouts get all the credit for player selections that hit, and he gets all of the blame for the busts.

Pioli decided to use Semtex instead of concrete for the foundation of his teams, but the first two years were just "Pioli!"

It's always happened here. Probably happens everywhere else, too. I guess it's just the nature of sports fandom.

[JPH83]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Unfortunately, that inability to appreciate the nuance is what leads to so many overreactions in the first place.

Veach becomes the GM and the Chiefs have success that first year= Veach is a God among men and should receive all credit for every success and no criticism for any failure. This leads to people overvaluing trades for players like Clark, which was a significant outlay of draft capital for the right to pay someone a big salary, and assuming that players like Edwards-Helaire and Hardman are plug-and-play All Pros.

It's no different than people treating Chris Jones like he's the greatest pass rusher of all-time in 2018 when he was simultaneously a massive liability against the run.

When things are going well everything and everyone is a GOAT. When a few bad weeks hit, the team is full of JAGs and the GM is a fraud. The truth is always between the poles.

Dorsey's significant errors in roster construction were overlooked while wins were coming in, but it doesn't mean they weren't present. As soon as he left, his scouts get all the credit for player selections that hit, and he gets all of the blame for the busts.

Pioli decided to use Semtex instead of concrete for the foundation of his teams, but the first two years were just "Pioli!"

It's always happened here. Probably happens everywhere else, too. I guess it's just the nature of sports fandom.

Agree on most of this. I also think that there's stuff it's hard for him to control, like players taking a step backwards or not being played when they've looked better than the incumbents.

On the other hand he's effectively had 1st round picks of CEH, Brown and Clark, but without full rookie contracts. His signing of Reed and switch of Jones looks a big mistake. And after 4 drafts we've probably got value from Nnadi, a limited 3rd rounder who has started this year poorly.

It's always tough to know on drafts until a few years down the line, but you really would expect more impact at this point. I think a number of GMs have drafted better.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by -King-

Not really it's just mental gymnastics to credit Veach and discredit Dorsey.

John Dorsey has been fired by multiple teams. He also had ideal situations in both jobs and ****ed them both up

[-King-]

Originally Posted by RunKC

John Dorsey has been fired by multiple teams. He also had ideal situations in both jobs and ****ed them both up

He's been fired because he's a power hungry egomaniac. Nothing to do with his actual job performance. The Chiefs and Browns are both winning because of his picks. Both of their cores are built 100% by Dorsey.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by -King-

He's been fired because he's a power hungry egomaniac. Nothing to do with his actual job performance. The Chiefs and Browns are both winning because of his picks. Both of their cores are built 100% by Dorsey.

Dorsey was handed 2 top 5 draft picks and he didn’t even pick the best QB. Take those top 5 picks out and it’s Nick Chubb and a bunch of JAG’s through his 2 drafts.

Shit Myles Garrett and Larry Ogunjobi are some of their best defensive players and they were drafted the year before Dorsey got there.

Veach didn’t get the luxury of high draft picks so this is a bad comparison

[-King-]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Dorsey was handed 2 top 5 draft picks and he didn’t even pick the best QB. Take those top 5 picks out and it’s Nick Chubb and a bunch of JAG’s through his 2 drafts.

Shit Myles Garrett and Larry Ogunjobi are some of their best defensive players and they were drafted the year before Dorsey got there.

Veach didn’t get the luxury of high draft picks so this is a bad comparison

Veach still had a bunch a picks. High pick or not, there's still value to be had all over the draft. It's not like top 5 picks are the only good players in the whole draft. The fact that none of his picks so far look to be worth a second contract is not good. Seriously, which of his 2018 or 2019 picks are players you feel we MUST re-sign?

[saphojunkie]

Originally Posted by -King-

He's been fired because he's a power hungry egomaniac. Nothing to do with his actual job performance. The Chiefs and Browns are both winning because of his picks. Both of their cores are built 100% by Dorsey.

If you're an egomaniac, how often are you going to listen to people who disagree with you? You assume you're right 100% of the time?

Then you can't actually do your job. No one is right 100% of the time, and good ideas can come from anywhere. you should read "Extreme Ownership" by Willink and Babin.

Your "work" and your "working relationships" are not independent of each other, especially in a leadership position.

[Sassy Squatch]

Originally Posted by RunKC

John Dorsey has been fired by multiple teams. He also had ideal situations in both jobs and ****ed them both up

It's not a coincidence that both teams had to completely overhaul the entire defense after he'd left, but that's besides the point right now.

To say that Veach isn't looking too good right now is a massive understatement. We all know the 2018 class was an absolute disaster, but the 2019 class is looking worse and worse as time goes on. We got 1 decent situational player from each class (Nnadi and Hardman) and the rest re a bunch of guys that can't get playing time on some pretty bad units.