Kelce cementing his HOF status

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

It’s the exact opposite.

Anyone who discounts blocking when comparing two legends like kelce and gronk isn’t taking the debate seriously.

I am still picking kelce. But without a doubt it is a huge factor when comparing two tight ends who are both elite receivers.

Gronk is in the discussion for 3 reasons:

1) Rings (thanks Brady)
2) TDs (no question he's an elite red zone weapon)
3) Age

It sucks but there's no escaping it - Travis Kelce wasn't playing until he was 25 years old. Gronk and Tony G were 21.

That's 3-4 more years those guys have to rack up numbers in their respective athletic primes. Gronk had 42 touchdowns by the time he was 25. He got a head start that would be considered an outstanding career for 90% of the TEs to ever play. Tony G had a 20 touchdown and 3K yard head start.

Gronk also has rings and an east coast media bias to help him out.

But I'm still not sure what this has to do with your assertion that Travis Kelce isn't the athlete either of those guys were. Because you've still yet to even attempt to argue that fact other than provide a sort of back-door "well if he WERE the athlete these guys were, he'd blow them out of the water" sort of logically untenable mess.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Gronk is in the discussion for 3 reasons:

1) Rings (thanks Brady)
2) TDs (no question he's an elite red zone weapon)
3) Age

It sucks but there's no escaping it - Travis Kelce wasn't playing until he was 25 years old. Gronk and Tony G were 21.

That's 3-4 more years those guys have to rack up numbers in their respective athletic primes. Gronk had 42 touchdowns by the time he was 25. He got a head start that would be considered an outstanding career for 90% of the TEs to ever play. Tony G had a 20 touchdown and 3K yard head start.

Gronk also has rings and an east coast media bias to help him out.

But I'm still not sure what this has to do with your assertion that Travis Kelce isn't the athlete either of those guys were. Because you've still yet to even attempt to argue that fact other than provide a sort of back-door "well if he WERE the athlete these guys were, he'd blow them out of the water" sort of logically untenable mess.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that. I think there is a ton to be said about playing the position the right way and I believe kelce did it better than anybody in history. Can you imagine if Jerry rice had speed or size like Randy moss? Rice isn’t even close to the most athletic receiver among the all time greats. That doesn’t mean athletic ability would’ve added a whole ton of stats to an insanely productive career. In fact I think kelce in a lot of ways is a more athletic version of Jerry rice. Much of their success is due to always being in the right place, running slick routes, and having outstanding ball instincts. Because they’re both absolutely elite in those areas.

While kelce had a head start over gonzo he’s also born a little bit on first base. As was gronk. Neither player has played much with a bad qb and they played in an aerial passing era. Both played for HOF coaches and kelce lined up next to a legit top tier WR. TG didn’t have those advantages. In fact I’d say his TD totals given his red zone skills would have been significantly better. Again, Without a shadow of a doubt im still taking kelce but it’s not quite the gap you’re making it to be. What gonzo did with the kind of talent he was surrounded with is really incredible too.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

It doesn’t necessarily mean that. I think there is a ton to be said about playing the position the right way and I believe kelce did it better than anybody in history. Can you imagine if Jerry rice had speed or size like Randy moss? Rice isn’t even close to the most athletic receiver among the all time greats. That doesn’t mean athletic ability would’ve added a whole ton of stats to an insanely productive career. In fact I think kelce in a lot of ways is a more athletic version of Jerry rice. Much of their success is due to always being in the right place, running slick routes, and having outstanding ball instincts. Because they’re both absolutely elite in those areas.

While kelce had a head start over gonzo he’s also born a little bit on first base. As was gronk. Neither player has played much with a bad qb and they played in an aerial passing era. Both played for HOF coaches and kelce lined up next to a legit top tier WR. TG didn’t have those advantages. In fact I’d say his TD totals given his red zone skills would have been significantly better. Again, Without a shadow of a doubt im still taking kelce but it’s not quite the gap you’re making it to be. What gonzo did with the kind of talent he was surrounded with is really incredible too.

You creamed your jeans over Christian Watson, didn't you?

Being tall and running fast in a straight line is not the end all, be all of athleticism. Trying to say that Jerry Rice isn't among the most athletic WRs of all time demonstrates that you just have a real odd definition of athletic. He absolutely was.

He's ability to make cuts without losing any speed and all then immediately hit his top end was remarkable. It's what made him absolutely uncoverable in that WCO system. Was he gonna sky over dudes like Moss? No, but that's why Moss became a damn verb. But Moss wasn't out there making those speed cuts either. Moss was a different kind of athlete, but not a clearly better one that Rice.

Before he got hurt, over his first 11 seasons Jerry Rice averaged 16 yards per reception (Moss managed 16 yards/reception in 4 seasons over his entire career). You think he 'smarted' his way to that? No way - he ran around and past guys to rack up that kind of damage.

Was Larry Fitzgerald among the most athletic of the all-time great WRs? No, no he was not. Was Jerry ****ing Rice - the best football player of all time - among the most athletic WRs ever? Jesus Christ...dafuq do I even need to answer that question for? Of COURSE he was. That dude was a monster.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

You creamed your jeans over Christian Watson, didn't you?

Being tall and running fast in a straight line is not the end all, be all of athleticism. Trying to say that Jerry Rice isn't among the most athletic WRs of all time demonstrates that you just have a real odd definition of athletic. He absolutely was.

He's ability to make cuts without losing any speed and all then immediately hit his top end was remarkable. It's what made him absolutely uncoverable in that WCO system. Was he gonna sky over dudes like Moss? No, but that's why Moss became a damn verb. But Moss wasn't out there making those speed cuts either. Moss was a different kind of athlete, but not a clearly better one that Rice.

Before he got hurt, over his first 11 seasons Jerry Rice averaged 16 yards per reception (Moss managed 16 yards/reception in 4 seasons over his entire career). You think he 'smarted' his way to that? No way - he ran around and past guys to rack up that kind of damage.

Was Larry Fitzgerald among the most athletic of the all-time great WRs? No, no he was not. Was Jerry ****ing Rice - the best football player of all time - among the most athletic WRs ever? Jesus Christ...dafuq do I even need to answer that question for? Of COURSE he was. That dude was a monster.

Jerry rice by the eye test was not GOAT level athletic. You really think he comes close to the speed and vertical of moss, or the size/speed combo of megatron? Of course he was extremely athletic but on the eye test there’s no way you can throw him in a combine and predict he would be the GOAT at his position by a wide margin. You seem to use athleticism and feel for the position interchangeably. I’m separating those things out. So much of rices success is built off of absurdly next level route running, awareness, and the best ball skills and hands in football history. There were so many little things that added up. Hell, nobody reacted to the snap quicker than jerry rice. He was an absurdly, practically perfect tactician of the position. He was Tim Duncan on the most potent of steroids. Not to mention being known as easily the hardest working player in the league. Rice was the best at these things by a very wide margin when compared to the greats. And I’d say kelce will be considered the best at these things too.

But there is no way on pure athletic talent alone rice compares to some guys who are physical freaks of nature. I mean, megatron alone may as well have been built out of a science lab. Even if megatron played with bill Walsh and Montana rice would still destroy megatron.

What the hell does Christian Watson have to do with anything? Are there people creaming their jeans for cooper kupp? You’re damn right they are, as they should