EV Cars/Trucks

[DaFace]

I'm starting to be a little worried about how much progress Chinese EV companies are making. We'll probably end up regulating them out of having much of an impact in the U.S., but they could take a real bite out of U.S. manufacturers' global car sales. Based on sales trends outside the U.S., other countries don't seem to have as many aversions to EVs as U.S. consumers do (some of which makes sense given how much more spread apart people are here).

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by DaFace

I'm starting to be a little worried about how much progress Chinese EV companies are making. We'll probably end up regulating them out of the U.S., but they could take a real bite out of U.S. manufacturers' global car sales. Based on sales trends outside the U.S., other countries don't seem to have as many aversions to EVs as U.S. consumers do (some of which makes sense given how much more spread apart people are here).

Your concerns seem well founded.

Their idea/procedure of the quick change batteries is a pretty big deal in my opinion.
I posted an article on it a while back, where it is similar to our system exchanging propane bottles. It is done quickly, similar to filling up with gas for ICE cars.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

Your concerns seem well founded.

Their idea/procedure of the quick change batteries is a pretty big deal in my opinion.
I posted an article on it a while back, where it is similar to our system exchanging propane bottles. It is done quickly, similar to filling up with gas for ICE cars.

That plus just overall cost. You can point to a lot of things for the "slowdown" of EV sales (which, to be clear, is more of a slowdown in growth than a slowdown in actual YOY sales), but the biggest factor seems to be that EVs are still pretty damn expensive compared to their ICE counterparts. Meanwhile, BYD is putting out new cars that cost around $10k (albeit with severely limited range at that price).

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by DaFace

That plus just overall cost. You can point to a lot of things for the "slowdown" of EV sales (which, to be clear, is more of a slowdown in growth than a slowdown in actual YOY sales), but the biggest factor seems to be that EVs are still pretty damn expensive compared to their ICE counterparts. Meanwhile, BYD is putting out new cars that cost around $10k (albeit with severely limited range at that price).

Offering one at $25k sounds like a good move in the right direction.

Back to the battery exchange thing.

I remember when I would not do that with propane tanks because my cylinders were pretty new (they have a date code) and didn't want an old piece of crap in exchange.

For the last few years I could care less and only care about it being full. The exchange is fully automated.

I can see that same attitude carrying over to EV batteries. You pull into a quick change place and snap, $20 and they swap in a fully charged battery in a few minutes.

This would make longer trips possible again without long charging delays.

[notorious]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

Offering one at $25k sounds like a good move in the right direction.

Back to the battery exchange thing.

I remember when I would not do that with propane tanks because my cylinders were pretty new (they have a date code) and didn't want an old piece of crap in exchange.

For the last few years I could care less and only care about it being full. The exchange is fully automated.

I can see that same attitude carrying over to EV batteries. You pull into a quick change place and snap, $20 and they swap in a fully charged battery in a few minutes.

This would make longer trips possible again without long charging delays.

It's the only way it will work.

Can't overcome the physics of charging with the current way of doing things.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by notorious

It's the only way it will work.

Can't overcome the physics of charging with the current way of doing things.

I agree, it makes so much sense.

If you are doing a regular daily commute the current system seems adequate, but anything too much beyond that seems like a gamble.

Read a story the other day about a guy that rented a Hyundai EV if I remember correctly. He had a heck of a time on a fairly short trip and the charger plug would not fit his vehicle once he found a place to charge it.

I would think they would make that universal, like the gas nozzles.

[Chief Pagan]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

I agree, it makes so much sense.

If you are doing a regular daily commute the current system seems adequate, but anything too much beyond that seems like a gamble.

Read a story the other day about a guy that rented a Hyundai EV if I remember correctly. He had a heck of a time on a fairly short trip and the charger plug would not fit his vehicle once he found a place to charge it.

I would think they would make that universal, like the gas nozzles.

Who is they?



Elon Musk is going to play nice?

The Federal Government is going to dictate a standard?

[RedRaider56]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

I agree, it makes so much sense.

If you are doing a regular daily commute the current system seems adequate, but anything too much beyond that seems like a gamble.

Read a story the other day about a guy that rented a Hyundai EV if I remember correctly. He had a heck of a time on a fairly short trip and the charger plug would not fit his vehicle once he found a place to charge it.

I would think they would make that universal, like the gas nozzles.

Most EV cars being sold in the US are now moving to the Tesla charging plug style. Today, customers are getting an adapter with their car, which will allow them to use Tesla charging stations.

In 2025, Ford & GM cars will be able to use the Tesla charging stations without an adapter.

If you're looking to buy an EV, hold off until 2025 if you can. Charging Life will get easier.

[ScareCrowe]

Originally Posted by HemiEd

Offering one at $25k sounds like a good move in the right direction.

Back to the battery exchange thing.

I remember when I would not do that with propane tanks because my cylinders were pretty new (they have a date code) and didn't want an old piece of crap in exchange.

For the last few years I could care less and only care about it being full. The exchange is fully automated.

I can see that same attitude carrying over to EV batteries. You pull into a quick change place and snap, $20 and they swap in a fully charged battery in a few minutes.

This would make longer trips possible again without long charging delays.

Problem is a propane tank is a way different scenario than an EV battery. Hell you said you didn't want to trade in tanks because the ones you had were less scratched than the ones you were going to get back. They were going to work exactly the same, but just them looking nice made you want to hold on to them.

Batteries however, unlike tanks, degrade over time. The old scratched up propane tank you were going to get in return was going to hold just as much propane as the newer ones you traded in. And tanks tend to not really die like batteries do. Now you're trading in a brand new battery & could get one that may have been in use a while & down to 80% capacity of a new one.

Furthermore what happens when that battery completely dies & needs to be replaced, is it the responsibility of the car owner or the owner of the "battery changing station" to replace it? If it's on the shop, these shops are in essence providing EV owners with free battery replacements for life. If not you could trade in a brand new battery for one that dies on you & now you have to replace a battery in a brand new car. In the rare instance a tank would die, you just pull it out of your grill & reexchange it. The company won't notice it's not working until they go to refill it & then they will fix it. I'm thinking when you have to tow your EV back to get the dead battery replaced they're going to realize somethings wrong with it.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by ScareCrowe

Problem is a propane tank is a way different scenario than an EV battery. Hell you said you didn't want to trade in tanks because the ones you had were less scratched than the ones you were going to get back. They were going to work exactly the same, but just them looking nice made you want to hold on to them.

Batteries however, unlike tanks, degrade over time. The old scratched up propane tank you were going to get in return was going to hold just as much propane as the newer ones you traded in. And tanks tend to not really die like batteries do. Now you're trading in a brand new battery & could get one that may have been in use a while & down to 80% capacity of a new one.

Furthermore what happens when that battery completely dies & needs to be replaced, is it the responsibility of the car owner or the owner of the "battery changing station" to replace it? If it's on the shop, these shops are in essence providing EV owners with free battery replacements for life. If not you could trade in a brand new battery for one that dies on you & now you have to replace a battery in a brand new car. In the rare instance a tank would die, you just pull it out of your grill & reexchange it. The company won't notice it's not working until they go to refill it & then they will fix it. I'm thinking when you have to tow your EV back to get the dead battery replaced they're going to realize somethings wrong with it.

Batteries don't really "die" like that, the charge they can hold just keeps decreasing until the effective range makes the car less usable. So you could have a battery at the end of its life and just charge it enough to get to the battery swap station and leave them with a bad battery. The battery swap company would need to factor the cost of buying new batteries to replace bad ones into the prices they charge for the battery swap service.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Batteries don't really "die" like that, the charge they can hold just keeps decreasing until the effective range makes the car less usable. So you could have a battery at the end of its life and just charge it enough to get to the battery swap station and leave them with a bad battery. The battery swap company would need to factor the cost of buying new batteries to replace bad ones into the prices they charge for the battery swap service.

I can see them having a test system or analyzer to make this kind of swap fair to both parties. I know on lead/acid batteries it exists but am not familiar with the technology on these new batteries.
I recently bought a lithium battery for the Jetski and it is much different.

[HemiEd]

Originally Posted by ScareCrowe

Problem is a propane tank is a way different scenario than an EV battery. Hell you said you didn't want to trade in tanks because the ones you had were less scratched than the ones you were going to get back. They were going to work exactly the same, but just them looking nice made you want to hold on to them.

Batteries however, unlike tanks, degrade over time. The old scratched up propane tank you were going to get in return was going to hold just as much propane as the newer ones you traded in. And tanks tend to not really die like batteries do. Now you're trading in a brand new battery & could get one that may have been in use a while & down to 80% capacity of a new one.

Furthermore what happens when that battery completely dies & needs to be replaced, is it the responsibility of the car owner or the owner of the "battery changing station" to replace it? If it's on the shop, these shops are in essence providing EV owners with free battery replacements for life. If not you could trade in a brand new battery for one that dies on you & now you have to replace a battery in a brand new car. In the rare instance a tank would die, you just pull it out of your grill & reexchange it. The company won't notice it's not working until they go to refill it & then they will fix it. I'm thinking when you have to tow your EV back to get the dead battery replaced they're going to realize somethings wrong with it.

You bring up some good points.

To start with, on the propane tanks, they used to have a date on them that when it had passed, they could not be refilled anymore. I had that happen once, but it was before these automated exchange centers existed.

You would take your tank to the refill station and they would check the date on your tank. I could care less if it was scratched up, it was the date that was the issue and also there were a couple different types of connectors initially. Depending on the type of connector your grill had, you had to have a compatible one on your tank.

Similar issue to the different charging connector issues on the EV batteries that exist now.

Without question, the cost of the EV batteries and where yours is at in it's life cycle will have to be factored in. I am very cognizant of battery life cycles and how they degrade.

It will be interesting to see how it is all worked out. At one time the propane tank issues seemed insurmountable.

[Couch-Potato]

Originally Posted by DaFace

I'm starting to be a little worried about how much progress Chinese EV companies are making. We'll probably end up regulating them out of having much of an impact in the U.S., but they could take a real bite out of U.S. manufacturers' global car sales. Based on sales trends outside the U.S., other countries don't seem to have as many aversions to EVs as U.S. consumers do (some of which makes sense given how much more spread apart people are here).

I'm curious to ask why? Do you work in the automotive industry? Buy their stock? ...I don't see how China producing affordable EV cars is bad for the average global and/or US consumer. The price of US vehicles, specifically, have absolutely sky-rocketed in recent years! I was in love with the idea of buying a jeep, when I was a kid it was super cool to drive a beat up wrangler, the low end wranglers now cost something like $60k and the top end wrangler goes for a whopping $100k+ after taxes!!!??? WTF!? It's not a ****ing house! I'd argue that Chinese competition might help reduce the rate of YOY price increases on similar US vehicles and offer a tiny piece of the total solution for dampening the inflation we're currently seeing in that market.

[ghak99]

Originally Posted by Couch-Potato

I'm curious to ask why? Do you work in the automotive industry? Buy their stock? ...I don't see how China producing affordable EV cars is bad for the average global and/or US consumer. The price of US vehicles, specifically, have absolutely sky-rocketed in recent years! I was in love with the idea of buying a jeep, when I was a kid it was super cool to drive a beat up wrangler, the low end wranglers now cost something like $60k and the top end wrangler goes for a whopping $100k+ after taxes!!!??? WTF!? It's not a ****ing house! I'd argue that Chinese competition might help reduce the rate of YOY price increases on similar US vehicles and offer a tiny piece of the total solution for dampening the inflation we're currently seeing in that market.

It sounds like you're talking about allowing Chinese economics and production methods to break the Unions. If allowed, it would be quite the viewing experience.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by Couch-Potato

I'm curious to ask why? Do you work in the automotive industry? Buy their stock? ...I don't see how China producing affordable EV cars is bad for the average global and/or US consumer. The price of US vehicles, specifically, have absolutely sky-rocketed in recent years! I was in love with the idea of buying a jeep, when I was a kid it was super cool to drive a beat up wrangler, the low end wranglers now cost something like $60k and the top end wrangler goes for a whopping $100k+ after taxes!!!??? WTF!? It's not a ****ing house! I'd argue that Chinese competition might help reduce the rate of YOY price increases on similar US vehicles and offer a tiny piece of the total solution for dampening the inflation we're currently seeing in that market.

Just a general desire to see U.S. manufacturing remain a healthy and viable industry.