The Pope John Paul II

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Only a scant 100 years ago, we were killing blacks, indians, and experimenting with syphillis on our own soldiers. I guess that makes you a killer and a slaver, right?

Historical fact:The American government killed many innocent humans starting two centuries ago, over greed and power. It has had corruption to some degree thru-out its history.
Historical fact:The Catholic church killed countless innocent humans over many centuries and has had corruption thru-out its history.
Historical fact: Both are corrupt.

I can appreciate what your try to say here, but you shouldnt put it at such a personal level. My issues are with the religions teachings and its leaders, not the lay people. I believe that is the issue with all who post here. What I dont understand is that the Catholic churches historical and current atrocities are justified by many its followers by comparing it something else corrupt. Why? Government and Religion are completely two different things, well there supposed to be anyway. Government is a set up of agreed laws to control and guide a society and then enforces it. Religion is supposed to educate you on how to guide your personal life according to the Bible, no matter what goverment you live in. God will not judge a person based on the goverment your a citizen of, but he will judge a person based on the religion your a member of. The Jews during Jesus time are a glaring example. All the Christian religions claim the Bible is the basis of there belief, but its interesting that none teach the same thing. There can only be one truth and it is the responsibilty of the individual to disern what is truth. I feel I have been able to disern that the Catholic Church, even though it has done great things with all its money and power, has been corrupt thru out its history and is blood guilty to the max. Most importantly though, the teachings of the church, I believe, are contrary to the bible teachings. So much so that my conscience couldnt agree anymore to be involved with the church and I have personally chosen to follow the Bible(teachings) and not the Church(teachings). I guess what I'm trying to present to you with all these words, is that I have no personal beef with you what-so-ever, and if you choose to be associated with the Catholic church it doesnt bother me at all. But I would respect your stance more if you wouldnt be so defensive and just agree (as you have stated yourself) that the Catholic Church has been corrupt thru out its history......and then just leave it at that. I will give you an "E" for effort though, because I finally got wore out trying to defend something that just cant be defended.

[Fairplay]

I was raised catholic but never practiced it after i got out the the house, niether did any of my other sibling's, to my mom and dads dismay.

Anyway a few week ago my dad said "I hope none my money i've been giving to the church isn't going to all these law suits the priests have been haveing to pay out for child molesting."

I just laughed to myself, i thought, well dad, it sure is, it sure is.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by Fairplay

I was raised catholic but never practiced it after i got out the the house, niether did any of my other sibling's, to my mom and dads dismay.

Anyway a few week ago my dad said "I hope none my money i've been giving to the church isn't going to all these law suits the priests have been haveing to pay out for child molesting."

I just laughed to myself, i thought, well dad, it sure is, it sure is.

Ya its kind of tough on the folks. I had a very similar thought to myself when my father said just last week that "I give my help the sunami victims money to the church, then we know there is no doubt that every penny will go to that cause". Didnt have the heart to say well actually dad....

[Fairplay]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Ya its kind of tough on the folks. I had a very similar thought to myself when my father said just last week that "I give my help the sunami victims money to the church, then we know there is no doubt that every penny will go to that cause". Didnt have the heart to say well actually dad....

.....that a sad story too. Oh well, if the good book is true, then those who take the money and use it for other purposes will get theres, i would think.

[KCWolfman]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Historical fact:The American government killed many innocent humans starting two centuries ago, over greed and power. It has had corruption to some degree thru-out its history.
Historical fact:The Catholic church killed countless innocent humans over many centuries and has had corruption thru-out its history.
Historical fact: Both are corrupt.

I can appreciate what your try to say here, but you shouldnt put it at such a personal level. My issues are with the religions teachings and its leaders, not the lay people. I believe that is the issue with all who post here. What I dont understand is that the Catholic churches historical and current atrocities are justified by many its followers by comparing it something else corrupt. Why? Government and Religion are completely two different things, well there supposed to be anyway. Government is a set up of agreed laws to control and guide a society and then enforces it. Religion is supposed to educate you on how to guide your personal life according to the Bible, no matter what goverment you live in. God will not judge a person based on the goverment your a citizen of, but he will judge a person based on the religion your a member of. The Jews during Jesus time are a glaring example. All the Christian religions claim the Bible is the basis of there belief, but its interesting that none teach the same thing. There can only be one truth and it is the responsibilty of the individual to disern what is truth. I feel I have been able to disern that the Catholic Church, even though it has done great things with all its money and power, has been corrupt thru out its history and is blood guilty to the max. Most importantly though, the teachings of the church, I believe, are contrary to the bible teachings. So much so that my conscience couldnt agree anymore to be involved with the church and I have personally chosen to follow the Bible(teachings) and not the Church(teachings). I guess what I'm trying to present to you with all these words, is that I have no personal beef with you what-so-ever, and if you choose to be associated with the Catholic church it doesnt bother me at all. But I would respect your stance more if you wouldnt be so defensive and just agree (as you have stated yourself) that the Catholic Church has been corrupt thru out its history......and then just leave it at that. I will give you an "E" for effort though, because I finally got wore out trying to defend something that just cant be defended.

Then you misunderstood my post. Yes, obvioiusly the Church and those committed to leading the Church have committed atrocities. My point, if you look at metrolike's answer below is simple - He states he admits both are corrupt and he has nothing to do with religion because of their corruption - yet he continues to qualify and make excuses why he is still a citizen while his government is just as guilty.

People like gochiefs aren't worth discussing the topic and I stay away from speaking with them on it. Note his determined animosity and deliberate jibes at others core beliefs merely to get a rise out of them. Those are the kind of people it is not worth defending against. They hate with so much vigor, they have no reason in their thoughts.

However, I find many peoples' hypocrisy regarding their reasons for hating religion while they embrace their particular side of politics to be very interesting and I have always tried to understand why they tick.

[CHIEF4EVER]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Then you misunderstood my post. Yes, obvioiusly the Church and those committed to leading the Church have committed atrocities. My point, if you look at metrolike's answer below is simple - He states he admits both are corrupt and he has nothing to do with religion because of their corruption - yet he continues to qualify and make excuses why he is still a citizen while his government is just as guilty.

People like gochiefs aren't worth discussing the topic and I stay away from speaking with them on it. Note his determined animosity and deliberate jibes at others core beliefs merely to get a rise out of them. Those are the kind of people it is not worth defending against. They hate with so much vigor, they have no reason in their thoughts.

However, I find many peoples' hypocrisy regarding their reasons for hating religion while they embrace their particular side of politics to be very interesting and I have always tried to understand why they tick.

Rep.

[Pants]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Then you misunderstood my post. Yes, obvioiusly the Church and those committed to leading the Church have committed atrocities. My point, if you look at metrolike's answer below is simple - He states he admits both are corrupt and he has nothing to do with religion because of their corruption - yet he continues to qualify and make excuses why he is still a citizen while his government is just as guilty.

People like gochiefs aren't worth discussing the topic and I stay away from speaking with them on it. Note his determined animosity and deliberate jibes at others core beliefs merely to get a rise out of them. Those are the kind of people it is not worth defending against. They hate with so much vigor, they have no reason in their thoughts.

However, I find many peoples' hypocrisy regarding their reasons for hating religion while they embrace their particular side of politics to be very interesting and I have always tried to understand why they tick.

Sorry, KCW. It's just that my linguistic skills aren't as good as C-Mac's. He expressed my thoughts exactly. It's just that your argument could be attacked from so many sides, I didn't know where to start, what to say so I just started rambling/ranting.

[KCWolfman]

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Sorry, KCW. It's just that my linguistic skills aren't as good as C-Mac's. He expressed my thoughts exactly. It's just that your argument could be attacked from so many sides, I didn't know where to start, what to say so I just started rambling/ranting.

I understand both your points, I just disagree - especially with someone as politically motivated as yourself. Here you are condemning an entire branch of people motivated by faith in their group because of the actions of a few while you support the people motivated by faith in their group in spite of the actions of a few.

[Pants]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

I understand both your points, I just disagree - especially with someone as politically motivated as yourself. Here you are condemning an entire branch of people motivated by faith in their group because of the actions of a few while you support the people motivated by faith in their group in spite of the actions of a few.

Well, I just don't see how government can be compared to religion. Your argument is irrefutable the way you present it. That makes it invalid. Government simply cannot be compared to religion IMO.

[KCWolfman]

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Well, I just don't see how government can be compared to religion. Your argument is irrefutable the way you present it. That makes it invalid. Government simply cannot be compared to religion IMO.

I disagree. Both work toward the betterment of mankind - that is the core for any free religion and free government. All else is fluff.

[Pants]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

I disagree. Both work toward the betterment of mankind - that is the core for any free religion and free government. All else is fluff.

It's true they have the same purpose. It's how they get there is what's different. Government can always somehow justify the dirty shit they do, religion, on the other hand, cannot.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

People like gochiefs aren't worth discussing the topic and I stay away from speaking with them on it. Note his determined animosity and deliberate jibes at others core beliefs merely to get a rise out of them. Those are the kind of people it is not worth defending against. They hate with so much vigor, they have no reason in their thoughts.
.

You've completely missed the point. I don't really hate, I just don't care.

[KCWolfman]

Originally Posted by gochiefs

You've completely missed the point. I don't really hate, I just don't care.

Sure, that would explain about 100 posts from you on a topic you don't care about.

Honestly, you aren't worth the effort.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Sure, that would explain about 100 posts from you on a topic you don't care about.

Honestly, you aren't worth the effort.

I don't care to PARTICIPATE in religion. I don't mind discussing it.

Honestly, you're a self-righteous asshole.

[KCWolfman]

Originally Posted by gochiefs

I don't care to PARTICIPATE in religion. I don't mind discussing it.

Honestly, you're a self-righteous asshole.

No, you mean you don't mind taunting others and attempting to humiliate them for their beliefs. At least be honest if you are going to be sanctimonious about others self-righteousness.