The Pope John Paul II

[InChiefsHeaven]

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches. They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church. The fact that the Church has done herself some bad damage in the past of course does not help it. But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible.

I am sick and tired of hearing about the priest and alter boy scandal. People love to make fun of it, but a simple google search will illustrate that the problem is actually MORE pervasive in Protestant churches. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a total mess, I can't even begin to go there. Does that make it right? Of COURSE not. But to sit there and gleefully crap all over the Catholic church for it's problems while totally ignoring the problems of other Christian denominations is intelectually dishonest at best. Sadly, it is also typical.

What people don't understand is that there is a ferverant NEED for the anti-God crowd in the world to take out the Catholic Church. Why? Because if you can take down the Catholics, the rest of Christianity will crumble as well. This is why Catholicism is a huge target. Satan needs to kill it. Sadly, Christ himself stated that the gates of Hell itself will not prevail against His Church, and try as he might for 2000 years, Satan still cannot prevail.

Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches. They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church. The fact that the Church has done herself some bad damage in the past of course does not help it. But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible. Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...

First off the issues are with the institution and its leaders...not lay people. Just because your church and leaders are corrupt, no one is saying that you are a "evil Catholic", only you are. The problem I see is that you have not lived long enough, researched enough, expierenced enough to get a good feel of what the Catholic church has been about thru out its history. Just for the record, in all the industrailized nations, church attendance is steadily decreasing and many churches are being closed. Again as I stated in post #155, what I dont understand is that the Catholic churches historical and current atrocities are justified by many its followers, by trying to compare it to something else thats possibly corrupt. I suppose its a physcological form of being in denial.

[InChiefsHeaven]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

First off the issues are with the institution and its leaders...not lay people. Just because your church and leaders are corrupt, no one is saying that you are a "evil Catholic", only you are. The problem I see is that you have not lived long enough, researched enough, expierenced enough to get a good feel of what the Catholic church has been about thru out its history. Just for the record, in all the industrailized nations, church attendance is steadily decreasing and many churches are being closed.

To say that the issue is not with the lay people makes no logical sense. If the church is corrupt, than it's members must be imbiciles, or condone the behavior. This is why Catholics take it personally. We ain't happy about the failures of our leadership, but that is not what is being attacked. What is being attacked is the institution itself, as you just stated. We believe in the institution. If you attack something that someone believes in, they will rise to defend it. The intsitution. Not the actions.

How the heck old do you think I am? Please don't lecture me on history...I'm not some bright eyed Catholic high school kid. I can't for the life of me figure out where you got that I am. BTW, the "evil Catholic" bit was tounge and cheek. Sorry 'bout that...

Again as I stated in post #155, what I dont understand is that the Catholic churches historical and current atrocities are justified by many its followers, by trying to compare it to something else thats possibly corrupt. I suppose its a physcological form of being in denial.

Not at all. Nobody is justifying it. Name me one person who has said that these things are justifyable. You can't cuz people don't. People grasp at statistics about other denominations having the same if not more trouble with it because the attacks make it sound like the Catholic Church is the ONLY church out there that has these problems. But nobody is justifying it at all...

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

To say that the issue is not with the lay people makes no logical sense. If the church is corrupt, than it's members must be imbiciles, or condone the behavior. This is why Catholics take it personally. We ain't happy about the failures of our leadership, but that is not what is being attacked. What is being attacked is the institution itself, as you just stated. We believe in the institution. If you attack something that someone believes in, they will rise to defend it. The intsitution. Not the actions....

Perhaps I speak only for myself, but I personally have no issues with Catholic people, but I do have issues with many of the politically and morally corrupt church leaders and of the churches non-biblical found teachings.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

How the heck old do you think I am? Please don't lecture me on history...I'm not some bright eyed Catholic high school kid. I can't for the life of me figure out where you got that I am. BTW, the "evil Catholic" bit was tounge and cheek. Sorry 'bout that.......

It should have been written "either you have not lived long enough or researched enough or expierenced enough" to make my point. Sorry

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

Not at all. Nobody is justifying it. Name me one person who has said that these things are justifyable. You can't cuz people don't. People grasp at statistics about other denominations having the same if not more trouble with it because the attacks make it sound like the Catholic Church is the ONLY church out there that has these problems. But nobody is justifying it at all...

Again perhaps the word "justify" doesnt make my point. Maybe the words "overlook", "excuse" or "distract" would do better. By you again stating that other churches have "the same if not more trouble" is wishful thinking and statisticaly unfounded.

[Clint in Wichita]

Can you spot the Pope in this picture?

A saint? He backs a bunch of child-fuggers. An angry parent should pitch his feeble arse into the Meditteranean.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by Clint in Wichita

A saint? He backs a bunch of child-fuggers. An angry parent should pitch his feeble arse into the Meditteranean.

Really? I did a google search on "Pope supports child molesters", and this is what I found:

http://www.the-tidings.com/2002/0503/trip.htm

Maybe you could give me some info on how he backs up a bunch of child-fuggers.

[chiefs4me]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Really? I did a google search on "Pope supports child molesters", and this is what I found:

http://www.the-tidings.com/2002/0503/trip.htm

Maybe you could give me some info on how he backs up a bunch of child-fuggers.

ah,,here they come a running

[InChiefsHeaven]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Perhaps I speak only for myself, but I personally have no issues with Catholic people, but I do have issues with many of the politically and morally corrupt church leaders and of the churches non-biblical found teachings.



It should have been written "either you have not lived long enough or researched enough or expierenced enough" to make my point. Sorry



Again perhaps the word "justify" doesnt make my point. Maybe the words "overlook", "excuse" or "distract" would do better. By you again stating that other churches have "the same if not more trouble" is wishful thinking and statisticaly unfounded.

Just one article:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

Look folks, I don't know any other way to say this other than plain English. The Church does not support child sex abuse. Period. The Boston Archdiosese is getting its ass kicked right now, and rightly so. Yes there were coverups, and I don't say that lightly. They are paying the price for it now. There have not been a deluge of new complaints or accusations, the ones you are hearing about that the law suits are about happened 20-30 years ago. Not to say that stuff doesn't still go on now, but the church is much more aware of it now and is reacting to it.

What bothers me is the notion that the Catholic church is the WORST offender. That has been said numerous times on this board, and it simply is not the case. That is why Catholics feel the need to point to examples of this type of thing in other denominations. Not to vindicate the Church (As Clint In Wichita seems to think I meant it, still don't know where he came up with that notion) but to alay the idea that the Catholic Church is the ONLY offender. This DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT, but it puts the problem in perspective. To put it another way, it seems that the Catholic haters of the world are using the scandal to further their agenda against the Church, rather than being concerned about the problem as a whole.

I think I could probably go on till I'm blue in the face and people will think what they want. All I'm saying is, the generalizations that people are making about the Catholic church are true of all human situations, including other denominations. Whatever makes you feel good about it, I guess...

[Oxford]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Just because your church and leaders are corrupt, no one is saying that you are a "evil Catholic", only you are.

C-Mac,
I will take you at your word that you are not, HOWEVER your statement dovetails very nicely with those that call Catholicism a cult. As a practicing catholic I take offense when someone calls the church corrupt because I see that as an attack on GOD's church.

If someone wants to attack someone within the church on the basis of that persons actions then that is right and proper. And if the allegations are proved to be true, then they should be punished. It is apparent throughout recorded history that corrupt people have used the church as an excuse for their actions, and there have been corrupt people leading the church, yet through all that she still stands.

It is encumbent on us, the laity, to demand accountability and not to abandon the church when ugly and despicable things come to light. I see that as my responsibility to those generations yet to come, .. if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by Oxford

C-Mac,
I will take you at your word that you are not, HOWEVER your statement dovetails very nicely with those that call Catholicism a cult. As a practicing catholic I take offense when someone calls the church corrupt because I see that as an attack on GOD's church.

If someone wants to attack someone within the church on the basis of that persons actions then that is right and proper. And if the allegations are proved to be true, then they should be punished. It is apparent throughout recorded history that corrupt people have used the church as an excuse for their actions, and there have been corrupt people leading the church, yet through all that she still stands.

It is encumbent on us, the laity, to demand accountability and not to abandon the church when ugly and despicable things come to light. I see that as my responsibility to those generations yet to come, .. if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

I have been on both sides of the fence. I was raised Catholic went to Catholic school, but once I actually read the Bible and did some historical research, I found stark contrasts to the churches teachings and actions. Yes thru out the years the Church has had much corruption and abuses of human rights. Sadly it still goes on down to today, and her attendance and unwaivering faithful is declining. I personally felt enough was enough and chose to follow the Bible teachings not the Church teachings, because I couldnt do both.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

I have been on both sides of the fence. I was raised Catholic went to Catholic school, but once I actually read the Bible and did some historical research, I found stark contrasts to the churches teachings and actions. Yes thru out the years the Church has had much corruption and abuses of human rights. Sadly it still goes on down to today, and her attendance and unwaivering faithful is declining. I personally felt enough was enough and chose to follow the Bible teachings not the Church teachings, because I couldnt do both.

EDIT - okay, I assume you do. Nevermind.

[Fairplay]

Hey Jenson, you being a huge Godfather fan.
After seeing The Godfather part 3. Should see the church is crooked.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by Fairplay

Hey Jenson, you being a huge Godfather fan.
After seeing The Godfather part 3. Should see the church is crooked.

Sure, I've never doubted that the church has had rough times. I understand that. And, this isn't a thread praising the church. This is a thread praising John Paul II as a man. The rest of you are arguing about the church.

[Pants]

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches. They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church. The fact that the Church has done herself some bad damage in the past of course does not help it. But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible.

I am sick and tired of hearing about the priest and alter boy scandal. People love to make fun of it, but a simple google search will illustrate that the problem is actually MORE pervasive in Protestant churches. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a total mess, I can't even begin to go there. Does that make it right? Of COURSE not. But to sit there and gleefully crap all over the Catholic church for it's problems while totally ignoring the problems of other Christian denominations is intelectually dishonest at best. Sadly, it is also typical.

What people don't understand is that there is a ferverant NEED for the anti-God crowd in the world to take out the Catholic Church. Why? Because if you can take down the Catholics, the rest of Christianity will crumble as well. This is why Catholicism is a huge target. Satan needs to kill it. Sadly, Christ himself stated that the gates of Hell itself will not prevail against His Church, and try as he might for 2000 years, Satan still cannot prevail.

Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...

Whoa, whoa. I think the same way about every organized religion as I do about Catholic Church. Catholic Church has been the worst throughout the history and that's why it's a good example.

[Clint in Wichita]

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches

That's because even among Christians, Catholics are incredibly self-righteous.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church.

Naw, it couldn't be for any other possible reason. It's always a "fundy". Every time.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible.

I think it's because it, like all other religions, is full of gullible, brainwashed people who would dive under a moving bus if the Pope told them to.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I am sick and tired of hearing about the priest and alter boy scandal. People love to make fun of it, but a simple google search will illustrate that the problem is actually MORE pervasive in Protestant churches. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a total mess, I can't even begin to go there. Does that make it right? Of COURSE not. But to sit there and gleefully crap all over the Catholic church for it's problems while totally ignoring the problems of other Christian denominations is intelectually dishonest at best. Sadly, it is also typical.

"Hey, stop picking on us! They ***** children, too!

Preists are screwing kids, higher-ups are covering it up, yet they should be given a pass because Jehova's Witnesses screw kids too? What sort of attitude is that?

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

What people don't understand is that there is a ferverant NEED for the anti-God crowd in the world to take out the Catholic Church. Why? Because if you can take down the Catholics, the rest of Christianity will crumble as well.

Actually, the fall of the Catholic church would probably be the best thing that ever happened to Christianity.

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

Satan needs to kill it. Sadly, Christ himself stated that the gates of Hell itself will not prevail against His Church, and try as he might for 2000 years, Satan still cannot prevail.

Yeah, well, I'll bet Christ didn't account for child-f_cking when he made that statement.

BTW, if Satan cannot prevail, what the hell are you worried about? Do you really think that naysayers might succeed where SATAN has failed? Prince of fuggin' Darkness, no problem. Bill Maher tells a joke on HBO, circle the wagons!!

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...

I'll quit crapping on the church when it's leaders stop f_cking children.

And whether the church falls or not, I won't "back up" anywhere near a Catholic Church.