The Pope John Paul II - Page 11

Jenson71 · 01:12 AM

Today I listened to a talk about the Catholic religion and part of it dealed with the Pope - John Paul II. Isn't he amazing? The Pope is one of my heroes. He's so unbelievably good. This thread is a tribute thread to the living saint.

Pants · 01-26-2005, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

It's a cowardly qualification, but I understand why it is done. Many people just don't like to hold themselves to the same standards they hold others.

EL-OH-EL. It's not a qualification. Religion is based on morality. Government isn't. The two can't be compared.

KCWolfman · 01-26-2005, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metrolike

EL-OH-EL. It's not a qualification. Religion is based on morality. Government isn't. The two can't be compared.

Yes, they can - you just chose not to do so because you would rather judge than be judged or at least have the cojones to be judged in the same light.

You state a religion is morally corrupt due to actions 100s of years ago and then have the audacity to state that your goverment killing innocent people less than a decade ago is understandable. There is nothing but sad qualifications to your statement

Pants · 01-26-2005, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Yes, they can - you just chose not to do so because you would rather judge than be judged or at least have the cojones to be judged in the same light.

You state a religion is morally corrupt due to actions 100s of years ago and then have the audacity to state that your goverment killing innocent people less than a decade ago is understandable. There is nothing but sad qualifications to your statement

Wait, wait, when did I say what the government did was right? What can I do to stop it? I chose not to follow catholic religion because it would be very hypocritical of me. I follow the citizenship code, I don't steal, kill or invade others property, etc. I vocally oppose the government's actions (you know I was against the war in Iraq, f.e.). I vote and try to convince people, but that's as much as I can do. But as a catholic, I'd break a lot of rules, like everybody else does and be a hypocrite. I chose not to become catholic or follow any other religion, even though I was brought up to believe and God and was baptized as a child.

Religion is a good way to scare/teach kids or make money, depends who you are. As the kids grow up, the same concepts tought in the Bible/Tora/Koran can be learned, understood and followed using other methods.

**alanm** · 01-26-2005, 02:05 AM

Quote:

John Paul II. Isn't he amazing? The Pope is one of my heroes.

Yeah, He's ok. But he can't follow his blocks like Priest.

C-Mac · 01-26-2005, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Only a scant 100 years ago, we were killing blacks, indians, and experimenting with syphillis on our own soldiers. I guess that makes you a killer and a slaver, right?

Historical fact:The American government killed many innocent humans starting two centuries ago, over greed and power. It has had corruption to some degree thru-out its history.
Historical fact:The Catholic church killed countless innocent humans over many centuries and has had corruption thru-out its history.
Historical fact: Both are corrupt.

I can appreciate what your try to say here, but you shouldnt put it at such a personal level. My issues are with the religions teachings and its leaders, not the lay people. I believe that is the issue with all who post here. What I dont understand is that the Catholic churches historical and current atrocities are justified by many its followers by comparing it something else corrupt. Why? Government and Religion are completely two different things, well there supposed to be anyway. Government is a set up of agreed laws to control and guide a society and then enforces it. Religion is supposed to educate you on how to guide your personal life according to the Bible, no matter what goverment you live in. God will not judge a person based on the goverment your a citizen of, but he will judge a person based on the religion your a member of. The Jews during Jesus time are a glaring example. All the Christian religions claim the Bible is the basis of there belief, but its interesting that none teach the same thing. There can only be one truth and it is the responsibilty of the individual to disern what is truth. I feel I have been able to disern that the Catholic Church, even though it has done great things with all its money and power, has been corrupt thru out its history and is blood guilty to the max. Most importantly though, the teachings of the church, I believe, are contrary to the bible teachings. So much so that my conscience couldnt agree anymore to be involved with the church and I have personally chosen to follow the Bible(teachings) and not the Church(teachings). I guess what I'm trying to present to you with all these words, is that I have no personal beef with you what-so-ever, and if you choose to be associated with the Catholic church it doesnt bother me at all. But I would respect your stance more if you wouldnt be so defensive and just agree (as you have stated yourself) that the Catholic Church has been corrupt thru out its history......and then just leave it at that. I will give you an "E" for effort though, because I finally got wore out trying to defend something that just cant be defended.

Fairplay · 01-26-2005, 03:21 AM

I was raised catholic but never practiced it after i got out the the house, niether did any of my other sibling's, to my mom and dads dismay.

Anyway a few week ago my dad said "I hope none my money i've been giving to the church isn't going to all these law suits the priests have been haveing to pay out for child molesting."

I just laughed to myself, i thought, well dad, it sure is, it sure is.

C-Mac · 01-26-2005, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairplay

I was raised catholic but never practiced it after i got out the the house, niether did any of my other sibling's, to my mom and dads dismay.

Anyway a few week ago my dad said "I hope none my money i've been giving to the church isn't going to all these law suits the priests have been haveing to pay out for child molesting."

I just laughed to myself, i thought, well dad, it sure is, it sure is.

Ya its kind of tough on the folks. I had a very similar thought to myself when my father said just last week that "I give my help the sunami victims money to the church, then we know there is no doubt that every penny will go to that cause". Didnt have the heart to say well actually dad....

Fairplay · 01-26-2005, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Ya its kind of tough on the folks. I had a very similar thought to myself when my father said just last week that "I give my help the sunami victims money to the church, then we know there is no doubt that every penny will go to that cause". Didnt have the heart to say well actually dad....

.....that a sad story too. Oh well, if the good book is true, then those who take the money and use it for other purposes will get theres, i would think.

Herzig · 01-26-2005, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

LOL - Ahh, the Religion is supposed to be good and Government isn't.

Qualification is usually done for those who don't want themselves judged as harshly as they judge others.

So what war were we involved in that required we give black men syphillis at Tuskegee?

What war were we reviewing when we killed David Koresh's followers?

Don't forget the current war in Iraq. No weapons of mass destruction...the premise or "excuse" for the war in the first place. Saddam was a real big threat to us...yeah right...that's why we took over and dismantled the whole country's millitary in less than 3 weeks. What huge collosal mistake/mess that place is now. I don't really see democracy working there for long time if ever. We gave the entire world a real good reason to hate us about 2 years ago IMO.

InChiefsHeaven · 01-26-2005, 08:24 AM

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches. They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church. The fact that the Church has done herself some bad damage in the past of course does not help it. But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible.

I am sick and tired of hearing about the priest and alter boy scandal. People love to make fun of it, but a simple google search will illustrate that the problem is actually MORE pervasive in Protestant churches. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a total mess, I can't even begin to go there. Does that make it right? Of COURSE not. But to sit there and gleefully crap all over the Catholic church for it's problems while totally ignoring the problems of other Christian denominations is intelectually dishonest at best. Sadly, it is also typical.

What people don't understand is that there is a ferverant NEED for the anti-God crowd in the world to take out the Catholic Church. Why? Because if you can take down the Catholics, the rest of Christianity will crumble as well. This is why Catholicism is a huge target. Satan needs to kill it. Sadly, Christ himself stated that the gates of Hell itself will not prevail against His Church, and try as he might for 2000 years, Satan still cannot prevail.

Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...

InChiefsHeaven · 01-26-2005, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herzig

Don't forget the current war in Iraq. No weapons of mass destruction...the premise or "excuse" for the war in the first place. Saddam was a real big threat to us...yeah right...that's why we took over and dismantled the whole country's millitary in less than 3 weeks. What huge collosal mistake/mess that place is now. I don't really see democracy working there for long time if ever. We gave the entire world a real good reason to hate us about 2 years ago IMO.

Yeah. Up until 2 years ago they all LOOOOVED us to death...

Meh. I'm not getting into another "why we went to Iraq" pissing match with you. Pessismists are typically that way for like ever, so I'm sure it would be a fruitless debate.

C-Mac · 01-26-2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches. They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church. The fact that the Church has done herself some bad damage in the past of course does not help it. But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible. Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...

First off the issues are with the institution and its leaders...not lay people. Just because your church and leaders are corrupt, no one is saying that you are a "evil Catholic", only you are. The problem I see is that you have not lived long enough, researched enough, expierenced enough to get a good feel of what the Catholic church has been about thru out its history. Just for the record, in all the industrailized nations, church attendance is steadily decreasing and many churches are being closed. Again as I stated in post #155, what I dont understand is that the Catholic churches historical and current atrocities are justified by many its followers, by trying to compare it to something else thats possibly corrupt. I suppose its a physcological form of being in denial.

InChiefsHeaven · 01-26-2005, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C-Mac

First off the issues are with the institution and its leaders...not lay people. Just because your church and leaders are corrupt, no one is saying that you are a "evil Catholic", only you are. The problem I see is that you have not lived long enough, researched enough, expierenced enough to get a good feel of what the Catholic church has been about thru out its history. Just for the record, in all the industrailized nations, church attendance is steadily decreasing and many churches are being closed.

To say that the issue is not with the lay people makes no logical sense. If the church is corrupt, than it's members must be imbiciles, or condone the behavior. This is why Catholics take it personally. We ain't happy about the failures of our leadership, but that is not what is being attacked. What is being attacked is the institution itself, as you just stated. We believe in the institution. If you attack something that someone believes in, they will rise to defend it. The intsitution. Not the actions.

How the heck old do you think I am? Please don't lecture me on history...I'm not some bright eyed Catholic high school kid. I can't for the life of me figure out where you got that I am. BTW, the "evil Catholic" bit was tounge and cheek. Sorry 'bout that...

Quote:

Again as I stated in post #155, what I dont understand is that the Catholic churches historical and current atrocities are justified by many its followers, by trying to compare it to something else thats possibly corrupt. I suppose its a physcological form of being in denial.

Not at all. Nobody is justifying it. Name me one person who has said that these things are justifyable. You can't cuz people don't. People grasp at statistics about other denominations having the same if not more trouble with it because the attacks make it sound like the Catholic Church is the ONLY church out there that has these problems. But nobody is justifying it at all...

memyselfI · 01-26-2005, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Today I listened to a talk about the Catholic religion and part of it dealed with the Pope - John Paul II. Isn't he amazing? The Pope is one of my heroes. He's so unbelievably good. This thread is a tribute thread to the living saint.

First W. then the pope...

C-Mac · 01-26-2005, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

To say that the issue is not with the lay people makes no logical sense. If the church is corrupt, than it's members must be imbiciles, or condone the behavior. This is why Catholics take it personally. We ain't happy about the failures of our leadership, but that is not what is being attacked. What is being attacked is the institution itself, as you just stated. We believe in the institution. If you attack something that someone believes in, they will rise to defend it. The intsitution. Not the actions....

Perhaps I speak only for myself, but I personally have no issues with Catholic people, but I do have issues with many of the politically and morally corrupt church leaders and of the churches non-biblical found teachings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

How the heck old do you think I am? Please don't lecture me on history...I'm not some bright eyed Catholic high school kid. I can't for the life of me figure out where you got that I am. BTW, the "evil Catholic" bit was tounge and cheek. Sorry 'bout that.......

It should have been written "either you have not lived long enough or researched enough or expierenced enough" to make my point. Sorry

Quote:

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

Not at all. Nobody is justifying it. Name me one person who has said that these things are justifyable. You can't cuz people don't. People grasp at statistics about other denominations having the same if not more trouble with it because the attacks make it sound like the Catholic Church is the ONLY church out there that has these problems. But nobody is justifying it at all...

Again perhaps the word "justify" doesnt make my point. Maybe the words "overlook", "excuse" or "distract" would do better. By you again stating that other churches have "the same if not more trouble" is wishful thinking and statisticaly unfounded.

01-23-2005, 10:20 PM
Jenson71 fides quaerens intellectum Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: United States Casino cash: $8330900	Pope John Paul II Today I listened to a talk about the Catholic religion and part of it dealed with the Pope - John Paul II. Isn't he amazing? The Pope is one of my heroes. He's so unbelievably good. This thread is a tribute thread to the living saint. Last edited by Jenson71; 03-31-2007 at 01:12 AM..
Posts: 15,986

01-26-2005, 03:21 AM	#156
Fairplay A certain set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: texas Casino cash: $10026683 VARSITY	I was raised catholic but never practiced it after i got out the the house, niether did any of my other sibling's, to my mom and dads dismay. Anyway a few week ago my dad said "I hope none my money i've been giving to the church isn't going to all these law suits the priests have been haveing to pay out for child molesting." I just laughed to myself, i thought, well dad, it sure is, it sure is.
Posts: 25,265

01-26-2005, 08:24 AM	#160
InChiefsHeaven Rockin' yer FACE OFF! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Casino cash: $585437	I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches. They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church. The fact that the Church has done herself some bad damage in the past of course does not help it. But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible. I am sick and tired of hearing about the priest and alter boy scandal. People love to make fun of it, but a simple google search will illustrate that the problem is actually MORE pervasive in Protestant churches. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a total mess, I can't even begin to go there. Does that make it right? Of COURSE not. But to sit there and gleefully crap all over the Catholic church for it's problems while totally ignoring the problems of other Christian denominations is intelectually dishonest at best. Sadly, it is also typical. What people don't understand is that there is a ferverant NEED for the anti-God crowd in the world to take out the Catholic Church. Why? Because if you can take down the Catholics, the rest of Christianity will crumble as well. This is why Catholicism is a huge target. Satan needs to kill it. Sadly, Christ himself stated that the gates of Hell itself will not prevail against His Church, and try as he might for 2000 years, Satan still cannot prevail. Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run... __________________ We have a million reasons for failure, but not one excuse... Die Donks, DIE!! Holy Crap fellas!!! We did it!!! THREE TIMES!!!
Posts: 27,259