Illegal Immigration: What should we do? - Page 7

**Mr. Kotter** · 04-11-2006, 11:42 AM

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

JBucc · 04-11-2006, 03:48 PM

We should just put up US Immigration Office signs on every building.

BucEyedPea · 04-11-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jspchief

...There are a lot of illegals that are in no hurry to be legalized.

...if ever at all. But it's just not right for some to not pay taxes and also use our social services.

Why doesn't Bush put pressure on Fox to clean out his gov't of corruption, liberalize his society and economy...so that it's not so dang hard to start a business there? We pick on other nations. We should encourage Mexico to create its own job machines and wealth.

**Donger** · 04-11-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

I think we should welcome those who are here because they want to be Americans and who are willing to work for the American dream.

That's the point. They don't WANT to be Americans. They just want the cash. If they wanted to be Americans, they would immigrate legally and make solid attempts to assimilate to the culture.

Legal immigrants want the dream and they are willing to work just as hard as illegals. To give illegals the same level of dignity and respect as illegals is a MASSIVE slap to the face of those that came to this country within the boundaries of its laws.

TEX · 04-11-2006, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger

That's the point. They don't WANT to be Americans. They just want the cash. If they wanted to be Americans, they would immigrate legally and make solid attempts to assimilate to the culture.

Legal immigrants want the dream and they are willing to work just as hard as illegals. To give illegals the same level of dignity and respect as illegals is a MASSIVE slap to the face of those that came to this country within the boundaries of its laws.

IMO, you're absolutely correct. Living in Houston, I've had a lifetime to get used to the issue.

My girlfriend is a teacher whose classes have some illegals who do not speak English. Get this, she's having to teach them in Spanish. Now that is simply UNBELIEVABLE!

**Donger** · 04-11-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEX

IMO, you're absolutely correct. Living in Houston, I've had a lifetime to get used to the issue.

My girlfriend is a teacher whose classes have some illegals who do not speak English. Get this, she's having to teach them in Spanish.

She should refuse to teach them.

TEX · 04-11-2006, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger

She should refuse to teach them.

That's what I told her but she says that she doesn't want to casue any toruble. So, I just dropped it. Around here, the way they deal with the iussue is they want folks to be billingual - only it's backwards in that more is done to make sure the American citizens can communicate with the illegals rather than the other way around.

Chief Faithful · 04-11-2006, 05:03 PM

I met a man this last weekend that has a driveway cleaning job who formerly had his own painting business. He no longer has the painting business because his competition under cut him by hiring illegals so he could charge half the price.

BucEyedPea · 04-11-2006, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEX

IMO, you're absolutely correct. Living in Houston, I've had a lifetime to get used to the issue.

My girlfriend is a teacher whose classes have some illegals who do not speak English. Get this, she's having to teach them in Spanish. Now that is simply UNBELIEVABLE!

I teach part-time...and that is un-buc-in-believable!!!!

Dealing with illiteracy in English is hard enough!!!

TEX · 04-11-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

I teach part-time...and that is un-buc-in-believable!!!!

Dealing with illiteracy in English is hard enough!!!

Exactly. Those kids have no incentive to learn the language and the school systems here facilitate that mentality because they'll continue to teach them in Spanish. I do understand that education is most important to any child, and any child should have the chance to receive a good education. However, IMO it's not too much to ask that said illegal allian child be taught in English since he/she is getting his/her education in this country. Am I missing something here?

Luzap · 04-11-2006, 05:30 PM

This is a very complex issue that I happen to have experience with on several levels. That doesn't mean my opinions are gauranteed to be right, but at least I know what questions to ask

Examples of complexities. I could write an essay on each of these, but I'll spare you...

There is a difference between crossing the border illegally and over-staying your visa. People that don't return have been through background checks, tend to be law abiding, and in my experience, are willing to work very hard. We always think of Mexico, but a vast percentage of illegals are from Central and South America and don't want to go back to what is literally a dangerous situation. They had to escape but couldn't get an immigration visa. They settled for a tourist visa instead (BTW, if you think our gov't doesn't know this is happening, think again. The number of Tourist Visas goes up dramatically to countries in turmoil).

There is a vast underground for illegal aliens. An underground economy is never good ~ no economics professor would ever argue that. The 'honest' illegals have no choice but to take part in it. Unfortunately, it also supports the 'bad' illegal elements. Being forced into this underground economy keeps aliens from assimilating into our society (what Roosevelt was quoted on).

Our current immigration laws are a mess and contribute to the problem. Don't get me started.

When I opened a fast food restaurant in OKC, I couldn't get people to even apply for the jobs ~ at any wage. Employers on this board are all telling you the same thing, Americans just don't want certain types of jobs. Several years ago when a new mall opened in Olathe, the stores couldn't find employees. Look it up, it made the newspaper. I live in Dallas and can promise you that the majority of the restaurants, construction companies, landscapers, grocery stores, Wal-Marts, etc. would not be able to stay open if you took away the illegals tomorrow. Who's going to move accross the country to work at McDonalds?

For non-salaried jobs, undocumented workers work harder, are more dependable, and more loyal. Just my experience.

'Cracking Down' on illegals just makes the underground culture stronger. Without getting into a long explanation, look at the Drug War ~ we've really hurt the drug cartels, haven't we?

IMO, IF YOU WANT TO FIX THE PROBLEM

Issue work permitts. You can't stop them from comming, so let's do background checks and keep the criminals out.

Naturalize the illigals that have otherwize been good citizens.

Break the back of the Underground. If the honest one's can come legally, there won't be any need for a supporting underground. Then get tougher with employers, stop giving education and social services to the non-documented, and it would become next to impossible for others to survive here being truly illegal.

Luz

there is much more we could talk about...

**KC Dan** · 04-11-2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luzap

This is a very complex issue that I happen to have experience with on several levels. That doesn't mean my opinions are gauranteed to be right, but at least I know what questions to ask

there is much more we could talk about...

I agree with you but I would add the obvious & that is that all of this doesn't mean a thing if we can't secure our borders. That has to be our number one priority besides changing our immigration policies. Whether its a wall, fence, National Guard, 50,000 border agents - something must be done. Our congressmen/women should be ashamed at their inaction. They are a National disgrace is you asked me. They probably can't even tie their own shoes without doing a focus group first.

jspchief · 04-11-2006, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by picasso

I know it would employ more PROFESSIONAL construction workers. Quality would go up and it wouldn't change the cost that much in that construction companies already pay 5 mexicans to do 2 americans jobs.
I haven't met a mexican construction crew yet that did as good a job as a professional construction worker in the field of framing, drywall or concrete. Any crew is fast with 8 guys getting paid $5 an hour but you suffer somewhere.

At least in my area, that couldn't be further from the truth. "Professional" construction workers as you call them will get hired over illegals every time. The problem is, there aren't enough quality professionals out there.

I also disagree with the notion that immigrant = sloppy work. A lot of these guys do better work than their American counterparts.

patteeu · 04-11-2006, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger

That's the point. They don't WANT to be Americans. They just want the cash. If they wanted to be Americans, they would immigrate legally and make solid attempts to assimilate to the culture.

Legal immigrants want the dream and they are willing to work just as hard as illegals. To give illegals the same level of dignity and respect as illegals is a MASSIVE slap to the face of those that came to this country within the boundaries of its laws.

Well, "they" aren't a monolith. That's why I went to the trouble of specifying which illegals I think we should welcome. Those who are here for the paycheck but have no interest in being Americans (i.e. stomachs in the US but hearts in Mexico) are in a different category. If we need these workers then we should have a "guest worker" program of some sort so that they will be documented and so that we can prevent them from getting all the perks of full citizenship (e.g. voting, welfare, etc.). But to the extent possible, it would be better if we could satisfy our labor needs through the legal immigration of those who want to become Americans.

Logical · 04-11-2006, 06:31 PM

Legalize it so that the only requirements are fingerprinting, application for SS# and pay for an entry paperwork processing fee.

**Donger** · 04-11-2006, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

Well, "they" aren't a monolith. That's why I went to the trouble of specifying which illegals I think we should welcome. Those who are here for the paycheck but have no interest in being Americans (i.e. stomachs in the US but hearts in Mexico) are in a different category. If we need these workers then we should have a "guest worker" program of some sort so that they will be documented and so that we can prevent them from getting all the perks of full citizenship (e.g. voting, welfare, etc.). But to the extent possible, it would be better if we could satisfy our labor needs through the legal immigration of those who want to become Americans.

Actually, I DO lump all illegals into one category. If they are willing to break the law in order to the get into the country, why would you expect anything less once they are in? I could care less as to their motivation.

These people ALL have a legal means to get in; they are CHOOSING not to.

To be blunt and as a legal immigrant, fuck them. If I had my way, they'd be against the wall tomorrow.

Probably a good thing I can never be President of the United States. I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for them. They are criminals, plain and simple.

View Poll Results: What should we do? (Check ALL that apply)
Grant "amnesty" to illegals who've been here at least 2 full years. (time to be negotiated)	8	6.67%
Streamline the naturalization process for current illegals, expediting their road toward citizenship.	13	10.83%
Allow illegals now here to be naturalized, eventually; but crack down on "new" illegals	15	12.50%
Grant eventual citizenship to illegals, but after a waiting period, a symbolic fine, and strict naturalization requirements.	16	13.33%
Crackdown harshly on businesses that are lazy, or who knowingly hire illegals.	57	47.50%
Build a 700 mile fence/wall to be heavily fortified and guarded to stop future illegals.	38	31.67%
Illegals should face a significant fine, and repayment of any back taxes....before being considered for citizenship.	28	23.33%
Illegals here for less than two years should be deported.	23	19.17%
Illegals here from 2-7 years, would be evaluated on a case-by-case basis; good "citizens" could be naturalized, but some would be deported.	24	20.00%
Illegals here for at least 8 years, could apply for expedited citizenship if they've been law-adiding (generally) and held jobs consistently.	24	20.00%
Deport only those illegals who've become problems and have not consistently maintained employment.	20	16.67%
Deport ALL, or nearly all, who entered the country illegally.	55	45.83%
Increase border patrol SUBSTANTIALLY, possibly including use of the armed forces as necessary.	58	48.33%
Utilize armed forces as a routine part of daily border patrol.	38	31.67%
Do whatever GAZ says....	12	10.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

04-11-2006, 11:42 AM
Mr. Kotter The Dude Abides Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Dakota Country Casino cash: $3264285	Illegal Immigration: What should we do? MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC. Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please? FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be. Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts. Poll to follow, shortly....
Posts: 46,901

04-11-2006, 03:48 PM	#91
JBucc MVP Join Date: Oct 2005 Casino cash: $10004952	We should just put up US Immigration Office signs on every building.
Posts: 12,016

04-11-2006, 05:03 PM	#97
Chief Faithful Predicting Chiefs Victory Join Date: Sep 2001 Casino cash: $9966500	I met a man this last weekend that has a driveway cleaning job who formerly had his own painting business. He no longer has the painting business because his competition under cut him by hiring illegals so he could charge half the price.
Posts: 4,315

04-11-2006, 05:30 PM	#100
Luzap 9.89 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Dallas, TX Casino cash: $10004900	Ok, you asked for a serious reply... This is a very complex issue that I happen to have experience with on several levels. That doesn't mean my opinions are gauranteed to be right, but at least I know what questions to ask Examples of complexities. I could write an essay on each of these, but I'll spare you... There is a difference between crossing the border illegally and over-staying your visa. People that don't return have been through background checks, tend to be law abiding, and in my experience, are willing to work very hard. We always think of Mexico, but a vast percentage of illegals are from Central and South America and don't want to go back to what is literally a dangerous situation. They had to escape but couldn't get an immigration visa. They settled for a tourist visa instead (BTW, if you think our gov't doesn't know this is happening, think again. The number of Tourist Visas goes up dramatically to countries in turmoil). There is a vast underground for illegal aliens. An underground economy is never good ~ no economics professor would ever argue that. The 'honest' illegals have no choice but to take part in it. Unfortunately, it also supports the 'bad' illegal elements. Being forced into this underground economy keeps aliens from assimilating into our society (what Roosevelt was quoted on). Our current immigration laws are a mess and contribute to the problem. Don't get me started. When I opened a fast food restaurant in OKC, I couldn't get people to even apply for the jobs ~ at any wage. Employers on this board are all telling you the same thing, Americans just don't want certain types of jobs. Several years ago when a new mall opened in Olathe, the stores couldn't find employees. Look it up, it made the newspaper. I live in Dallas and can promise you that the majority of the restaurants, construction companies, landscapers, grocery stores, Wal-Marts, etc. would not be able to stay open if you took away the illegals tomorrow. Who's going to move accross the country to work at McDonalds? For non-salaried jobs, undocumented workers work harder, are more dependable, and more loyal. Just my experience. 'Cracking Down' on illegals just makes the underground culture stronger. Without getting into a long explanation, look at the Drug War ~ we've really hurt the drug cartels, haven't we? IMO, IF YOU WANT TO FIX THE PROBLEM Issue work permitts. You can't stop them from comming, so let's do background checks and keep the criminals out. Naturalize the illigals that have otherwize been good citizens. Break the back of the Underground. If the honest one's can come legally, there won't be any need for a supporting underground. Then get tougher with employers, stop giving education and social services to the non-documented, and it would become next to impossible for others to survive here being truly illegal. Luz there is much more we could talk about...
Posts: 3,327

04-11-2006, 06:31 PM	#104
Logical Screw U if U can't take a joke Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	Legalize it so that the only requirements are fingerprinting, application for SS# and pay for an entry paperwork processing fee.
Posts: 31,579