Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[memyselfI]

Originally Posted by Donger

They wouldn't need attorney fees to fight deportation if they hadn't immigrated illegally, now would they?

Uh, perhaps you missed the part where I said that nearly HALF of the 'illegal immigrants' WERE HERE LEGALLY at least initially...

the point is if it were possible and uncomplicated for THEM to make themselves legal before they fell into illegal status then you would eliminate at least half of the problem. In addition, these people would have legal status and thus would qualify for jobs and paying taxes and would not ever be a drain on the system.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by memyselfI

Uh, perhaps you missed the part where I said that nearly HALF of the 'illegal immigrants' WERE HERE LEGALLY at least initially...

the point is if it were possible and uncomplicated for THEM to make themselves legal before they fell into illegal status then you would eliminate at least half of the problem. In addition, these people would have legal status and thus would qualify for jobs and paying taxes and would not ever be a drain on the system.

No, I didn't miss it. It's just irrelevant. If you overstay your visa, you're illegal and are responsible for any fees that you might incur. I know as a liberal you're inclined to forgive laziness and stupidity, but let's reward it, shall we?

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by memyselfI

Uh, perhaps you missed the part where I said that nearly HALF of the 'illegal immigrants' WERE HERE LEGALLY at least initially...

I don't believe that. Not even close to half.

I'm not normally the type to demand links, but in this case I have to call BS unless you have something that supports the statement. And I seriously doubt something like that exists.

There are estimated millions that come to this country illegally each year. For your "half" stayement to be true, that would mean that we allow millions of non-citizens into this country each year too, and that an equal number of them actually stay illegally. I don't think so.

[Donger]

Don't know if this is true, but the following was apparently being handed out in Dallas during the recent 'protests.'

.

[Iowanian]

Every employer who pays an illegal under the table, is hurting our economy and increasing my tax burden.

Its already Illegal to be an illegal boarder jumper.

Americans don't want the hard jobs? true. Make welfare that much harder to get and MAKE the capable, worthless leaches get a job and keep one.

Why work when you can live fine without it?

America is the only nation I know of, with FAT poor people.

Besides the tax burden of illegals, It pisses me off that immigrants won't learn the language, and some schools CAN'T fly an American Flag because its "offensive" to some new residents. Eff them.


There is a legal way, for a productive new citizen to enter our country, be productive and live a good life here.

The sign on Ellis Island should be changed to "give us your engineers, doctors and physics professors".

[Luzap]

Here are some points that are relevant to some of the posts I've read...

By definition, no one knows how many illegal aliens we have in this country. Some respectable sources say 11 to 12 million, others say 40 million. I suspect the higher number is closer to being accurate.

Most illegals have papers. Many of the arguments here are based on the idea that illegals are not paying taxes, etc. How do you think they get jobs at Wal-Mart, restaurants, etc? The underground I referred to in previous posts easily supplies SS cards, birth certificates, etc. Although since 9/11 they can no longer get Drivers Licenses, almost all of them currently have them.

It's not as simple as filling out a form. INS currently has 'lotteries' in each country for immigration and limits the amount of tourist visas. So it's pot luck whether one can be had ~ assuming the odds aren't stacked against you because of corruption (that never happens - right? ).

I can't remember ever agreeing with memyselfandi... but she was on the right track in an earlier post. If people want to move here and be a productive part of our society, screen them, give them work permits, and let them. This eliminates the need for an underground, encourages the immigrants to learn our language, take pride in our country, and assimilate. No one I know would come here illegally if they could legally. Combine this with tighter laws for illegals (such as some of our friends here are advocating) and you eliminate the need to build a wall.

Bilingual Education and ESL do not work. In Texas, the schools get more money based on the number of students they have in these programs. IMO and in my experience, these programs encourage secularism and slow down the assimilation and English language learning process.

The greatest explosion of inventivness, creativity, and industry in the history of our country came during a period of 'open' immigration. Protectionism and sealing our borders from immigrants only hurts and stifles our country. If we allow the honest desirable element easy access to us, it will be much easier to keep the undesireables out ~ and our society will be better off for it.

Luz
random thoughts...

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Iowanian

MAKE the capable, worthless leaches get a job and keep one.

Employers salivate at the thought of hiring these worthless leaches. They usually turn out to be hard workers.

[Iowanian]

I wasn't talking about your beloved immigrant labor pool. I'm talking about the douchebag Americans who choose to sit home in thier HUD paid house, in their Govt Asst electric paid AC, eating Food Stamp Doritos on a 70 degree wednesday afternoon, instead of working.

Every employee that is paid under the table saves the employer money, true....but it adds to the tax burden of himself and every other taxpayer, as the same guy paid under the table has kids in school, medical needs and probably is getting foodstamps, because the records don't show them with a job.


I think one of the reason, guys like you can't find and keep desireable American employees, is that anyone with half a brain, some ambition and skill sees that instead of working and giving you the profit, they can go on their own.

I've worked my share of physical and undesirable jobs, including construction of homes with Mexican labor. It always thrilled me when I was shoveling gravel while they took their 2hr nap.

[Eleazar]

Wow. A ton of support in this poll for "Deport ALL, or nearly all, who entered the country illegally". Encouraging to see.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Iowanian

I wasn't talking about your beloved immigrant labor pool. I'm talking about the douchebag Americans who choose to sit home in thier HUD paid house, in their Govt Asst electric paid AC, eating Food Stamp Doritos on a 70 degree wednesday afternoon, instead of working.

Every employee that is paid under the table saves the employer money, true....but it adds to the tax burden of himself and every other taxpayer, as the same guy paid under the table has kids in school, medical needs and probably is getting foodstamps, because the records don't show them with a job.

I wasn't either. I was being sarcastic.

Why the fuck would I want to hire some American welfare deadbeat that's only applying for a job at the government's gunpoint? Nobody wants the pond scum that makes up a large percentage unemployed Americans. They are unemployed because they are losers to begin with and they don't want a job bad enough to work hard and keep it.

I don't want illegal labor, I want good labor. I don't want cheap labor, I want good labor. It's not about keeping illegals around. It's about leaglizing them and keeping hard workers around.

Your solution of shipping off 10 million workers and replacing them with the Quicksurfers of the world simply is not viable. You can stomp your feet with the rest of the uninformed xenophobes all you want, but the fact remains this country needs those workers.

[Iowanian]

It looks like your obvious sollution is meth-heads. They always say they have too much energy and don't sleep for 4 days at a time anyway. A couple of flood lights and you can really run up the hours.

I understand why you do what you do, and that loafers aren't the answer.....I'd like to find a way to "encourage" loafers to get a damn job and keep it.

Its nice to see that everyone with a different viewpoint, and no monetary gain via illegal labor is an uninformed xenophobe.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Iowanian

Its nice to see that everyone with a different viewpoint, and no monetary gain via illegal labor is an uninformed xenophobe.

Sorry, but after the "ship them all out and give the jobs to Americans posts", that shoe seems to fit like it was custom made.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Luzap

Here are some points that are relevant to some of the posts I've read...

By definition, no one knows how many illegal aliens we have in this country. Some respectable sources say 11 to 12 million, others say 40 million. I suspect the higher number is closer to being accurate.

Most illegals have papers. Many of the arguments here are based on the idea that illegals are not paying taxes, etc. How do you think they get jobs at Wal-Mart, restaurants, etc? The underground I referred to in previous posts easily supplies SS cards, birth certificates, etc. Although since 9/11 they can no longer get Drivers Licenses, almost all of them currently have them.

It's not as simple as filling out a form. INS currently has 'lotteries' in each country for immigration and limits the amount of tourist visas. So it's pot luck whether one can be had ~ assuming the odds aren't stacked against you because of corruption (that never happens - right? ).

I can't remember ever agreeing with memyselfandi... but she was on the right track in an earlier post. If people want to move here and be a productive part of our society, screen them, give them work permits, and let them. This eliminates the need for an underground, encourages the immigrants to learn our language, take pride in our country, and assimilate. No one I know would come here illegally if they could legally. Combine this with tighter laws for illegals (such as some of our friends here are advocating) and you eliminate the need to build a wall.

Bilingual Education and ESL do not work. In Texas, the schools get more money based on the number of students they have in these programs. IMO and in my experience, these programs encourage secularism and slow down the assimilation and English language learning process.

The greatest explosion of inventivness, creativity, and industry in the history of our country came during a period of 'open' immigration. Protectionism and sealing our borders from immigrants only hurts and stifles our country. If we allow the honest desirable element easy access to us, it will be much easier to keep the undesireables out ~ and our society will be better off for it.

Luz
random thoughts...

All good points. Your posts here, and the thread in general, is causing me to seriously re-evaluate my stance on this issue. I mean, everything you've said makes a lot of sense in my view. You mind if I ask, what do you do? You seem very "tuned in" to the whole situation.

In my Planet experience, with all the political "talk" I've had (probably about half of my 26K posts), I've only had one other issue where I've really felt I learned something that changed my mind on an issue (decriminalization/legalization of MJ.) This is the second.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by Cochise

Wow. A ton of support in this poll for "Deport ALL, or nearly all, who entered the country illegally". Encouraging to see.

As much as that is an understandable reaction, IMO it is based on emotion and a lack of understanding the complex issues involved here. There are times I think, "screw it, just send them home!" too.

However, I just don't think it's realistic, economically or practically. And I'm also of the opinion it runs counter to everything this country stands for. I know times have changed, but it's a good thing for many of us.....Americans didn't feel the same way when our families first came to America.

[memyselfI]

Originally Posted by jspchief

I don't believe that. Not even close to half.

I'm not normally the type to demand links, but in this case I have to call BS unless you have something that supports the statement. And I seriously doubt something like that exists.

There are estimated millions that come to this country illegally each year. For your "half" stayement to be true, that would mean that we allow millions of non-citizens into this country each year too, and that an equal number of them actually stay illegally. I don't think so.

Of course you don't want to believe it...

50 year old college professors from Ireland don't make the same kind of impact as a poster child as do 'person of Hispanic heritages' who swim rivers and climb walls...

but it's true.

The problem is you were restating my point as being half of all illegal people NOW entering the country are doing so while legal. That is not what I said. My point was that there are people here who've been here anywhere from 1 month to 40 years who were initally legal and never left when their visa expired. That is an enormous time span impacting literally millions of people.

Of course to know this you have to accept that not all illegal aliens are criminals to start with...something that some people don't want to admit. They'd rather lump everyone into one category and feel like they've fairly addressed the problem.

As far as Mr. Kotter's poll, there is a fundamental problem with having to prove your employment status. Many people are not working legally because it's illegal to do so. And which of their employers are going to step up and vouge for them and say 'yes, I've employed Jose for 15 years, where do I send the check for my fine?'