Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Luzap

Just for arguments sake, how would you react when you got fined for hiring someone that had a valid drivers licence, SS#, and Green Card?

All of you that are claiming all this hiring is being done for greed do not, imo, appreciate the problem.

Luz
BTW, if you don't hire them because they 'might' be illegal, you're setting yourself up for a discrimination suit...

I would think that should be deal with as any fraud....the victim is innocent and the person committing fraud prosecuted for it.

Well I don't necessarily agree with a lot of those discrimination suits anyway.

[Luzap]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

I would think that should be deal with as any fraud....the victim is innocent and the person committing fraud prosecuted for it.

Well I don't necessarily agree with a lot of those discrimination suits anyway.

BucEyedPea,

With all respect, I don't think you realize how many illegal aliens have papers. Fining employers doesn't work.

Luz
i don't agree with immigration laws or many discrimination suits either. but it doesn't change the reality...

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Luzap

BucEyedPea,

With all respect, I don't think you realize how many illegal aliens have papers. Fining employers doesn't work.

Y'er right I don't. I don't care how many do either. I was speaking more on principle. You may or may not have a point. I'm just discussing anyway and have NOT done a real lot of reading on this issue from that angle anyway.JMO.

I actually prefer deportion and land mines the most anyway.

Luz

i don't agree with immigration laws or many discrimination suits either. but it doesn't change the reality...

Glad to hear it.

BTW...this issue seems to come down to "choose your poison."

[dirk digler]

This is a subject I have been passionate about for the last 5+ years and having been involved in hiring illegal or supposed illegal immigrants I feel I have a pretty good insight on the subject.

I worked as a Restaurant Manager in Overland Park, KS for 3 years and let me tell you it was EXTREMELY hard to hire American workers. Johnson County is one of the wealthiest counties in the US and the kids that restaurants depend on to work during the summer aren't available because their parents are rich and so they don't have to work. So we started hiring Hispanics for these jobs and at one time 80% of my crew was Hispanic. Now alot of them had papers and SSN cards and we had a process to verify their numbers but most them admitted in private they were illegal but after a while I didn't care because I needed the help.

With that being said I believe we need to get this huge problem under control. Here is my proposal:

1. Build a high-tech fence and defend with the military. This is a National Security issue first and foremost. I like Donger's idea of 2 warning shots and then a kill shot. We needed to stop the bleeding 5 years ago.

2. STOP ALL LEGAL Immigration for 5-7 years while we get this under control.

3. DO NOT actively pursue any illegal immigrants in the US right now unless they have committed crimes other than just being illegal. If the INS or the police stumble upon illegal immigrants we will deport them.

4. Start a National ID card program.

5. Stop all government services to illegals and if they can't produce legal documents then they will be deported.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

I worked as a Restaurant Manager in Overland Park, KS for 3 years and let me tell you it was EXTREMELY hard to hire American workers. Johnson County is one of the wealthiest counties in the US and the kids that restaurants depend on to work during the summer aren't available because their parents are rich and so they don't have to work. So we started hiring Hispanics for these jobs and at one time 80% of my crew was Hispanic. Now alot of them had papers and SSN cards and we had a process to verify their numbers but most them admitted in private they were illegal but after a while I didn't care because I needed the help.

This is what I've been trying to tell people, and they simply refuse to believe it. Anyone that's had to deal with hiring at low wage levels understands. People look at unemployment rates and think there are lines of unemployed Americans that simply can't get jobs, when the reality is 75% of those people are unemployable or simply don't want a job, and the other 25% are selective about which job they'll work. And it's reached a point where it's no longer about cheap labor in most states. Employers are paying good wages to anyone.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by jspchief

This is what I've been trying to tell people, and they simply refuse to believe it. Anyone that's had to deal with hiring at low wage levels understands. People look at unemployment rates and think there are lines of unemployed Americans that simply can't get jobs, when the reality is 75% of those people are unemployable or simply don't want a job, and the other 25% are selective about which job they'll work. And it's reached a point where it's no longer about cheap labor in most states. Employers are paying good wages to anyone.

That problem is also regional. In faster growing states (Arizona, Nevada) the lack of workers is obvious. In central Mo. it's not as much of a problem. Even here though it's hard to find someone reliable for a part time position (20 hrs and under a week) that starts at $7.50 an hour.

The problem is raising children in a welfare state that shows them they don't HAVE to work. The entire working class culture has changed and that's the problem...

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

This is a subject I have been passionate about for the last 5+ years and having been involved in hiring illegal or supposed illegal immigrants I feel I have a pretty good insight on the subject.

I worked as a Restaurant Manager in Overland Park, KS for 3 years and let me tell you it was EXTREMELY hard to hire American workers. Johnson County is one of the wealthiest counties in the US and the kids that restaurants depend on to work during the summer aren't available because their parents are rich and so they don't have to work. So we started hiring Hispanics for these jobs and at one time 80% of my crew was Hispanic. Now alot of them had papers and SSN cards and we had a process to verify their numbers but most them admitted in private they were illegal but after a while I didn't care because I needed the help.

With that being said I believe we need to get this huge problem under control. Here is my proposal:

1. Build a high-tech fence and defend with the military. This is a National Security issue first and foremost. I like Donger's idea of 2 warning shots and then a kill shot. We needed to stop the bleeding 5 years ago.

2. STOP ALL LEGAL Immigration for 5-7 years while we get this under control.

3. DO NOT actively pursue any illegal immigrants in the US right now unless they have committed crimes other than just being illegal. If the INS or the police stumble upon illegal immigrants we will deport them.

4. Start a National ID card program.

5. Stop all government services to illegals and if they can't produce legal documents then they will be deported.

I appreciate your passion for the subject, and I must say, my intial reactions and thoughts on the subject fall not to far from yours. I just don't know that your approach will work, UNLESS we also target those businesses hiring illegal aliens with fines and punishment for future violations. Cleaning up the mess, without addressing the cause would only ensure it would happen again down the road. And that leads us back to who's gonna fill those jobs, that you, jsp, and others seem convinced that Americans apparently do not want. Because I don't know if it would fly, or even if it's wise:

1. Fence sounds good, but will it really work? Or will illegals just find a way around our very expensive "band-aid" as some suggest?

2. Stopping legal immigration for 5-7 years sounds a bit harsh....and it punishes people who've been waiting in the "legal" line for the actions of illegals. It just strikes me as, almost Anti-American....

3. Deport those illegals "found," but don't look for them? I don't understand that one, I guess...

4. National ID? I'd be for it, but that's one that will be tough to sell to many libertarian types for fear they would be misused.

5. I don't support government programs for illegals, but deportation of those who've lived here for many years and held productive jobs seems harsh.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences. I'd support fines, payment of taxes they've neglected, and a rigorous naturalization process. Economically and realistically, deporting 11-12 million illegals seems unneccesary, expensive, and unwise given the potential economic fall-out that you yourself allude to.

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

I appreciate your passion for the subject, and I must say, my intial reactions and thoughts on the subject fall not to far from yours. I just don't know that your approach will work, UNLESS we also target those businesses hiring illegal aliens with fines and punishment for future violations. Cleaning up the mess, without addressing the cause would only ensure it would happen again down the road. And that leads us back to who's gonna fill those jobs, that you, jsp, and others seem convinced that Americans apparently do not want. Because I don't know if it would fly, or even if it's wise:

1. Fence sounds good, but will it really work? Or will illegals just find a way around our very expensive "band-aid" as some suggest?

2. Stopping legal immigration for 5-7 years sounds a bit harsh....and it punishes people who've been waiting in the "legal" line for the actions of illegals. It just strikes me as, almost Anti-American....

3. Deport those illegals "found," but don't look for them? I don't understand that one, I guess...

4. National ID? I'd be for it, but that's one that will be tough to sell to many libertarian types for fear they would be misused.

5. I don't support government programs for illegals, but deportation of those who've lived here for many years and held productive jobs seems harsh.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences. I'd support fines, payment of taxes they've neglected, and a rigorous naturalization process. Economically and realistically, deporting 11-12 million illegals seems unneccesary, expensive, and unwise given the potential economic fall-out that you yourself allude to.

Rob I will explain a little better but my positions are all National Security related and IMO that trumps most everything else.

1. Building a high tech fence and the US Military guarding the border will instantly stop 98% of illegal crossings and drug trafficking IMO. We need to stop the real problem which is the illegal crossings. IMO this should be the first priority because without it then the problem will always exist.

2. I believe we should stop all legal immigration because we can't handle the load we have now and we have no idea who is in this country or not. Until we have a better grasp shut down any immigration.

3. Basically what I am saying here is not actively have a policy to pursue and round up illegal immigrants unless they are wanted for crimes committed in the US. What I don't want and which is impossible is to go round up 12 million illegals and deport them. IMO that would wreck the economy. But at the same time if INS or police come across illegals then they need to deport them. IMO punishing small businesses is not the answer.

4. I agree with you and I am not totally sold on it but it could be a start.

5. This one really pisses me off. Not only do you and I and the rest of the country have to support dead beat losers who can't get a job but now we have to support Non-****ing Americans with my tax dollars. **** that shit. These illegals get better medical care than most Americans do and that is not right. Also from what I understand in CA if an illegal wants to go to college they can and don't have to pay out of state tuition but if I wanted to send my kid to college in CA then I would. Have ****ing messed up is that?

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

Rob I will explain a little better but my positions are all National Security related and IMO that trumps most everything else.

1. Building a high tech fence and the US Military guarding the border will instantly stop 98% of illegal crossings and drug trafficking IMO. We need to stop the real problem which is the illegal crossings. IMO this should be the first priority because without it then the problem will always exist.

2. I believe we should stop all legal immigration because we can't handle the load we have now and we have no idea who is in this country or not. Until we have a better grasp shut down any immigration.

3. Basically what I am saying here is not actively have a policy to pursue and round up illegal immigrants unless they are wanted for crimes committed in the US. What I don't want and which is impossible is to go round up 12 million illegals and deport them. IMO that would wreck the economy. But at the same time if INS or police come across illegals then they need to deport them. IMO punishing small businesses is not the answer.

4. I agree with you and I am not totally sold on it but it could be a start.

5. This one really pisses me off. Not only do you and I and the rest of the country have to support dead beat losers who can't get a job but now we have to support Non-****ing Americans with my tax dollars. **** that shit. These illegals get better medical care than most Americans do and that is not right. Also from what I understand in CA if an illegal wants to go to college they can and don't have to pay out of state tuition but if I wanted to send my kid to college in CA then I would. Have ****ing messed up is that?

Thanks for taking the time to respond, dirk. I certainly understand the national security concerns, and agree that tightening border control should be a priority. I'm just not convinced that a fence is the answer: very expensive to build, maintain, and guard--and will it even really work? I guess I could see shutting down the borders briefly, in exteme circumstances, but I'm not sure we are there yet. Deporting illegals without addressing the reason they come here seems pointless to me. As I've said, national ID would be fine with me; I just think we are still a ways off on getting that one passed. Sadly, it'll probably take another 9/11 or something similar to wake people up. Your last point is the one I probably agree most strongly about. For the life of me, I don't understand how we can administer programs or services to people we know to be here illegally. That makes no sense. If we are gonna do that, then some sort of earned amnesty and eventual citizenship should be arranged for those people; otherwise, I think we should deport them.

[Mr. Kotter]

Thanks to all those that responded to the poll, and contributed to the thread. I learned some things I didn't know, including some things that have shaped my opinion on the subject.