Chiefs Explain to me why we need to give Herm more time - Page 9

**Dave Lane** · 12-17-2007, 11:14 AM

After seeing my worst fears come true in Herm with the Jetsification of the Chiefs (a top 5 draft pick) and the destruction of a team. I wonder in this microwave world of instant gratification how is it we cling to the notion 2 years doesn't set a trend especially giving his previous body of work. So I thought well surely 2 years must be handed out like candy in the past to any head coach and then it occurred to me to check the Chiefs history to confirm this.

Chiefs Head Coaches with shortest tenures:

Tom Bettis - 1977
Frank Gansz - 1987-1988
Gunther Cunningham - 1999-2000
Paul Wiggin - 1975-1977
John Mackovic - 1983-1986

Thats half of the Chiefs Head Coaches in the history of this team. 3 of them are 2 years or less. So in the present world why not cut ties with Herm. Actually excluding Herm 33% of Chiefs coaches have had a tenure of 2 years or less. And yes I know Bettis is a bad choice. Still 2 years of Herm like performance has cost coaches their jobs in the past.

Dave

Messier · 12-17-2007, 11:07 PM

So the alternative to Hern, is, I assume, not a retread coach, you wouldn't want that, right? I guess we could call Dennis Green. Or a college coach, we're seeing how that doesn't work. Cower said he isn't coming back. So, a really good can't miss coordinator. Be sure to allow a good two more years of 5 wins while he gets his "guys" on the team. Come on. We're on a freight train that left the station. Herm's plan will either work or it won't, but he'll be given the chance, as he should.

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-17-2007, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Ever wonder how this same lousy Oline somehow managed to block one of the top defensive lines last Sunday? They finally grew tired of being thrown under the bus and they played with some heart, desire and pride. A great coach will bring that out in his players every Sunday. There is talent on this team, there isnt enough heart,desire and belief on this team and that falls directly on the coach(s).

Oh really?

How about the fact that the Chiefs moved Svitek to the right side of the line but more importantly, they CUT Chris Terry. They were playing for their JOBS.

Additionally, they didn't face the best defensive tackle in football, Albert Haynesworth. That would have made all the difference in the world.

These guys are OLD. OLD. OLD. There's no amount of coaching that will make them play at a higher level.

They'e DONE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HemiEd

I could not agree with you more, well said.

Ed, you may be a nice guy but week after week, all you bring is hate.

And no insight or knowledge.

Mecca · 12-17-2007, 11:20 PM

LOL.....well when you are breaking in a young QB, you aren't gonna be a top 5 offense, that's all that needs to be said for the Skins. You can have all the skill position players in the world Jason Campbell is/was a first year starter.

Also Chris Cooley ain't no elite TE, there are at least 5 better ones, if not more.

This Herm drafting shit is funny, he's decent at it. That doesn't make the drafts great because they are better than the awful shit they were before..."hey we got a starter in the first round in both Herms drafts" guess what.....you're suppose to you dumb ****.

Hammock Parties · 12-17-2007, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

LOL.....well when you are breaking in a young QB, you aren't gonna be a top 5 offense

Top 5 is one thing. If Saunders was so great you'd think the Skins could be, oh, maybe top 15? They don't even approach it. And they haven't improved over last season, either.

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-17-2007, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

LOL.....well when you are breaking in a young QB, you aren't gonna be a top 5 offense, that's all that needs to be said for the Skins. You can have all the skill position players in the world Jason Campbell is/was a first year starter.

Also Chris Cooley ain't no elite TE, there are at least 5 better ones, if not more.

This Herm drafting shit is funny, he's decent at it. That doesn't make the drafts great because they are better than the awful shit they were before..."hey we got a starter in the first round in both Herms drafts" guess what.....you're suppose to you dumb ****.

You REALLY don't know what you're talking about, do you?

Last year, the Redskins started Mark Brunell. Why weren't they an elite offense then?

Name the 5 TE's that are better than Cooley, then tell me he's not elite.

Gates
Witten
Gonzalez
Cooley
Winslow

These guys have the most catches in the NFL as tight ends. Cooley's got 7 TD's, 2 more than Gonzalez and Winslow and two less than Gates.

If he's not elite, I guess either is anyone outside of Gates.

smittysbar · 12-17-2007, 11:35 PM

Gates
Gonzo
Heap
Witten
Clark
Winslow
Crumpler - although he has not had a QB this year

I would consider all of these TE's better

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-17-2007, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smittysbar

Gates
Gonzo
Heap
Witten
Clark
Winslow
Crumpler - although he has not had a QB this year

I would consider all of these TE's better

60 catches, 7 touchdowns. $30 million dollar contract.

He is an elite TE.

Mecca · 12-17-2007, 11:39 PM

Yes because you know it's 100% stats......I'm not saying Chris Cooley sucks but he isn't Winslow out there or anything like that.

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-17-2007, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Yes because you know it's 100% stats......I'm not saying Chris Cooley sucks but he isn't Winslow out there or anything like that.

Just because he's not Winslow doesn't mean that he's not an elite tight end in the league.

There are more than 64 tight ends in the league and to say that Cooley isn't elite would be incorrect.

Mecca · 12-17-2007, 11:47 PM

Ok elite is top 5 to me.......I'd immediately rate Gates, Winslow, Gonzalez and Witten ahead of him so that's 4..

Then after that it gets kind of muddled, Heap comes in, Cooley comes in, Dallas Clark comes in, Shockey comes in..

I think those top 4 separate themselves from the rest.

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-17-2007, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Ok elite is top 5 to me.......I'd immediately rate Gates, Winslow, Gonzalez and Witten ahead of him so that's 4..

Then after that it gets kind of muddled, Heap comes in, Cooley comes in, Dallas Clark comes in, Shockey comes in..

I think those top 4 separate themselves from the rest.

Cooley's got more touchdowns and more catches than Heap or Shockey and more catches than Clark.

That makes Cooley top 5 in 2007.

C-Mac · 12-18-2007, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Oh really?

How about the fact that the Chiefs moved Svitek to the right side of the line but more importantly, they CUT Chris Terry. They were playing for their JOBS.
Additionally, they didn't face the best defensive tackle in football, Albert Haynesworth. That would have made all the difference in the world.

These guys are OLD. OLD. OLD. There's no amount of coaching that will make them play at a higher level.

They'e DONE.

You validate what I'm trying to say, a great coach will have them playing for their jobs every week, playing with purpose. Marty did more in his first two years with less.

dallaschiefsfan · 12-18-2007, 10:14 AM

I'm sure that some of you have already read this in the Star today...but we're on pace for the fewest points in history with the exception of the the 1982 strike-shortened season. For the Herm apologists:

I know that we lost Roaf...then Shields and Green diminished, etc...but you can't seriously tell me that it's reasonable in anyway to see a powerhouse of an offense brought down to this level within two years? When has this ever happened in the NFL?

I'll agree with some of you that the offense had to get younger and was bound to change in the post-Vermeil period...and that there are forces from without that you have no control over (age, retirement, etc.). But dear God...HOW in the world do you stoop to this level from where we were this quickly? Is there another NFL example of a team so decimated so quickly?

It just seems that Herm was bound and determined to hurry the process along for the irrational reason that it wasn't his style of football. I think Roaf, Green, et-al understood this. We can play the "what if" game all day...but I can't help but believe that things could have been much different had Saunders chosen (w/ Herm's request) to stay on as the OC and been left alone to run the offense.

So much of what's happened to this team just seems unnecessary and sad. It just seems that Herm has been so stubborn and prideful about doing "his thing" that whatever was left of Vermeil's team be damned.

C-Mac · 12-18-2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan

I'm sure that some of you have already read this in the Star today...but we're on pace for the fewest points in history with the exception of the the 1982 strike-shortened season. For the Herm apologists:

I know that we lost Roaf...then Shields and Green diminished, etc...but you can't seriously tell me that it's reasonable in anyway to see a powerhouse of an offense brought down to this level within two years? When has this ever happened in the NFL?

I'll agree with some of you that the offense had to get younger and was bound to change in the post-Vermeil period...and that there are forces from without that you have no control over (age, retirement, etc.). But dear God...HOW in the world do you stoop to this level from where we were this quickly? Is there another NFL example of a team so decimated so quickly?

It just seems that Herm was bound and determined to hurry the process along for the irrational reason that it wasn't his style of football. I think Roaf, Green, et-al understood this. We can play the "what if" game all day...but I can't help but believe that things could have been much different had Saunders chosen (w/ Herm's request) to stay on as the OC and been left alone to run the offense.

So much of what's happened to this team just seems unnecessary and sad. It just seems that Herm has been so stubborn and prideful about doing "his thing" that whatever was left of Vermeil's team be damned.

I have seen average coaches look great with great players and I have seen average players look great with a great coach, but I've never seen an average coach look great with average players. Something will have to give for the Chiefs to suceed anytime soon. I have not been a Herm basher but I have to admit that I have never seen a coach deflect blame to the players so easily.

**HemiEd** · 12-18-2007, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Lane

All you have to ask is what would this offense be like if Saunders was still OC without Herm meddling? We have gone from a #2 ranking to number 31 in 1.8 years that may be a record. It also points to coaching and descending production from a coaching scheme.

And apart from Roaf and Shields its the same basic group Saunders was working with 2 years ago. And forget green he was good but "the system" helped him and Collins both.

Dave

Yep, have you watched the Redskins offense the last two weeks? Collins has played both of the last two games. Very solid, made me long for days gone by.

12-17-2007, 11:14 AM
Dave Lane Space Cadet and Aczabel Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Kanab, UT, USA Casino cash: $9333275 VARSITY	Explain to me why we need to give Herm more time After seeing my worst fears come true in Herm with the Jetsification of the Chiefs (a top 5 draft pick) and the destruction of a team. I wonder in this microwave world of instant gratification how is it we cling to the notion 2 years doesn't set a trend especially giving his previous body of work. So I thought well surely 2 years must be handed out like candy in the past to any head coach and then it occurred to me to check the Chiefs history to confirm this. Chiefs Head Coaches with shortest tenures: Tom Bettis - 1977 Frank Gansz - 1987-1988 Gunther Cunningham - 1999-2000 Paul Wiggin - 1975-1977 John Mackovic - 1983-1986 Thats half of the Chiefs Head Coaches in the history of this team. 3 of them are 2 years or less. So in the present world why not cut ties with Herm. Actually excluding Herm 33% of Chiefs coaches have had a tenure of 2 years or less. And yes I know Bettis is a bad choice. Still 2 years of Herm like performance has cost coaches their jobs in the past. Dave
Posts: 40,584

12-17-2007, 11:07 PM	#121
Messier MVP Join Date: Mar 2004 Casino cash: $10005050	So the alternative to Hern, is, I assume, not a retread coach, you wouldn't want that, right? I guess we could call Dennis Green. Or a college coach, we're seeing how that doesn't work. Cower said he isn't coming back. So, a really good can't miss coordinator. Be sure to allow a good two more years of 5 wins while he gets his "guys" on the team. Come on. We're on a freight train that left the station. Herm's plan will either work or it won't, but he'll be given the chance, as he should.
Posts: 7,610

12-17-2007, 11:20 PM	#123
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-752950	LOL.....well when you are breaking in a young QB, you aren't gonna be a top 5 offense, that's all that needs to be said for the Skins. You can have all the skill position players in the world Jason Campbell is/was a first year starter. Also Chris Cooley ain't no elite TE, there are at least 5 better ones, if not more. This Herm drafting shit is funny, he's decent at it. That doesn't make the drafts great because they are better than the awful shit they were before..."hey we got a starter in the first round in both Herms drafts" guess what.....you're suppose to you dumb ****.
Posts: 115,387

12-17-2007, 11:35 PM	#126
smittysbar Right in the Lumberyard Danny Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: LaPlata, MO Casino cash: $10004942	Gates Gonzo Heap Witten Clark Winslow Crumpler - although he has not had a QB this year I would consider all of these TE's better __________________
Posts: 6,646

12-17-2007, 11:39 PM	#128
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-752950	Yes because you know it's 100% stats......I'm not saying Chris Cooley sucks but he isn't Winslow out there or anything like that.
Posts: 115,387

12-17-2007, 11:47 PM	#130
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-752950	Ok elite is top 5 to me.......I'd immediately rate Gates, Winslow, Gonzalez and Witten ahead of him so that's 4.. Then after that it gets kind of muddled, Heap comes in, Cooley comes in, Dallas Clark comes in, Shockey comes in.. I think those top 4 separate themselves from the rest.
Posts: 115,387

12-18-2007, 10:14 AM	#133
dallaschiefsfan Herm is the worst...horrible Join Date: Sep 2000 Casino cash: $3038850	I'm sure that some of you have already read this in the Star today...but we're on pace for the fewest points in history with the exception of the the 1982 strike-shortened season. For the Herm apologists: I know that we lost Roaf...then Shields and Green diminished, etc...but you can't seriously tell me that it's reasonable in anyway to see a powerhouse of an offense brought down to this level within two years? When has this ever happened in the NFL? I'll agree with some of you that the offense had to get younger and was bound to change in the post-Vermeil period...and that there are forces from without that you have no control over (age, retirement, etc.). But dear God...HOW in the world do you stoop to this level from where we were this quickly? Is there another NFL example of a team so decimated so quickly? It just seems that Herm was bound and determined to hurry the process along for the irrational reason that it wasn't his style of football. I think Roaf, Green, et-al understood this. We can play the "what if" game all day...but I can't help but believe that things could have been much different had Saunders chosen (w/ Herm's request) to stay on as the OC and been left alone to run the offense. So much of what's happened to this team just seems unnecessary and sad. It just seems that Herm has been so stubborn and prideful about doing "his thing" that whatever was left of Vermeil's team be damned.
Posts: 2,033