Chiefs It’s Herm’s defense now - Page 3

Hammock Parties · 05-15-2008, 12:40 PM

http://kan.scout.com/2/754878.html

Everyone knows Herm Edwards was brought to Kansas City to restore the tradition of great defense. It was clear from his introductory press conference in January of 2006.

"If you’re going to win a championship you have got to have a great defense," Edwards said that day. "There is no doubt about it. Every team I have been involved with had good defenses."

Yes, it’s true that head coaches oversee the entire football team, but no one will soon accuse Herm Edwards of being an offensive genius. The Chiefs have spent six of their nine first-day picks under Edwards on the defensive side of the football. His primary mission as KC’s head coach has to been to rebuild a defense that ranked 25th the year before his arrival.

Some might argue Edwards has had enough time now. Jeff Fisher’s defense in Tennessee ranked near the bottom of the league in points allowed as recently as 2004 and 2005 and dead last in total yardage in 2006. But by reshaping his defensive roster (mostly the back seven) while Titans fans remained patient, Fisher saw his unit bolt to fifth in total defense a year ago, leading his team back to the playoffs despite a below-average offense.

Meanwhile, fans in Kansas City have also remained patient - the Chiefs have drafted 11 defensive players under Edwards’ watch and brought in a long list of free agents (Ty Law, Ron Edwards, James Reed, Alfonso Boone, Donnie Edwards, Napoleon Harris, DeMorrio Williams etc). The defensive coaching staff, save coordinator Gunther Cunningham, has been completely turned over from the Vermeil days.

When the Chiefs line up on defense against Tom Brady and Randy Moss this September, 10 of the 11 starters on the field will most likely have arrived in Kansas City under Edwards’ watch. Linebacker Derrick Johnson could be the only holdover from the previous regime (cornerback Patrick Surtain is another possibility, but there's a chance he'll be the third corner this year).

In fact, a quick check of KcChiefs.com reveals that Johnson and Surtain will be the only remaining defenders (factoring in the upcoming release/trade of safety Greg Wesley) from the Vermeil era on the entire defensive roster when this season begins.

Here is the point – this is Herm’s defense now. The cupboard has been swept clean of the stale fare of years past. There are no more Kendrell Bells or Eric Warfields. No one is waiting for Ryan Sims to turn into something.

Instead, we’re waiting for Tank Tyler, Turk McBride and Bernard Pollard to justify their draft position. We’re waiting for Herm to make good on the promise he delivered that same day he was hired.

"We are going to play defense because it’s important," he said. "I think especially in the National Football League in the months of November and December, especially when you make it in the playoffs, if you look at the teams that won, what did they do? Play defense."

Have the Chiefs been playing defense under Edwards’ watch? Well, no one can turn up their nose at KC's defensive rankings the last two seasons – 16th and 13th – but you know that’s not what Herm wants. He wants what he saw in Tampa Bay, the kind of defense that suffocates even the elite offenses and can carry a marginal offense deep into the playoffs, if not the Super Bowl.

It’s interesting that Edwards has built his current defense in that same Tampa Two mold. He now has his three-technique defensive tackle in Glenn Dorsey. The Chiefs see a little bit of John Lynch in Bernard Pollard. When Edwards drafted cornerback Brandon Flowers this April, he compared the rookie to the Cover Two corners the Buccaneers drafted during his time in Tampa – Ronde Barber and Donnie Abraham.

The Chiefs dealt their dominant outside pass rusher, their version of Simeon Rice (Jared Allen) this offseason, so there is still obviously work to be done. And more than you might think, when you consider those two months Edwards mentioned when he was hired – November and December – haven’t exactly been great times for Chiefs defenses the last two seasons.

During those late-season affairs (18 games in all), Edwards’ Chiefs defenses have given up 20.5 points per game and 343 yards per game. Respectable defense, perhaps, but you know that’s not the goal. The Chiefs want to be dominant. They want to field a championship defense.

Is Herm’s defense - full of his players, directed by his coaches, and the one he clearly must take full ownership of now – ready to restore the tradition of great defense in Kansas City? We’ll find out in November and December this year.

FRIDAY: Why the Chiefs might struggle to take the next step on defense in 2008.

Hammock Parties · 05-15-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Who's been a starter for all of ONE season.

I don't expect Pollard to be a pro bowler or even a GOOD player his first year.

I do expect a few rays of hope.

Fish · 05-15-2008, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B_Ambuehl

Guys should be let go AFTER you've found a suitable replacement not before.

Nice concept, but it doesn't always work out that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B_Ambuehl

In Herm's case, it's given him a good reason for getting rid of a lot of players whose only guilt was being smart enough to see through and question his incompetency.

What in the world are you talking about?

What player was let go because they questioned Herm's competency?

B_Ambuehl · 05-15-2008, 04:00 PM

Quote:

First Hall and Mitchell, now WEIGMANN?

The guy who got tossed around like a ****ing rag doll last year?

People say things like this because he's small but I imagine people saying this are parroting things they heard and not watching tape. Wiegmann is still a solid center. Watch what he does for Denver. The main problems with our offensive line last year were due to right tackle, predictability in the running game, and Huard holding onto the ball for an eternity.

Compare Dante Halls returns in '07 to Eddie Drummonds.

Kawika Mitchell was at least solid against the run. Nap Harris does nothing very well.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 05-15-2008, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE

I don't expect Pollard to be a pro bowler or even a GOOD player his first year.

I do expect a few rays of hope.

Damn.

Did Pollard **** Carrie Underwood or something?

He's a first year starter who made mistakes. Most do.

Doesn't help that he was playing between two of the slowest CB's in the league. I'd love to see coaches film of each game and see how many of those mistake were actually his fault, and how many got pinned on him because he was trying to help out a burned Law/Surtain.

(Not saying it happened, but would love a closer look)

CupidStunt · 05-15-2008, 04:04 PM

For a guy who sucks off Jarrad Page as much as he does, you'd think he'd be a little lighter on a guy in Pollard who's either better or just as good.

I haven't seen a safety in the NFL in the last decade as invisible against the run as Page. Guy is a pure nickel safety with enough ability to pick off a horribly thrown pass every so often. (See every Raiders QB or that Matt Schaub duck.)

DaJuan Morgan was drafted (1) to play free safety, not strong safety; and (2) because he was the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE.

Hammock Parties · 05-15-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lj4mvp

For a guy who sucks off Jarrad Page as much as he does, you'd think he'd be a little lighter on a guy in Pollard who's either better or just as good.

There is no way in hell Pollard is better than Page. They are light years apart in terms of development.

Page is THE reason we consistently stop Antonio Gates. He's outstanding in coverage, and last year he improved his tackling and starting hitting people.

Pollard has yet to put anything on his resume as a defensive player. He doesn't come close to Page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lj4mvp

DaJuan Morgan was drafted (1) to play free safety, not strong safety; and (2) because he was the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE.

He was drafted to play both safety positions. And the Chiefs already said he was no reflection on Page or Pollard, but if Pollard doesn't start making plays, Morgan will take his place.

Brock · 05-15-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE

Pollard has yet to put anything on his resume as a defensive player. He doesn't come close to Pollard.

You can't even keep the two separated in your mind, that's how similar they are.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 05-15-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B_Ambuehl

People say things like this because he's small but I imagine people saying this are parroting things they heard and not watching tape. Wiegmann is still a very good center. Watch what he does for Denver.

Compare Dante Halls returns in '07 to Eddie Drummonds.

Kawika Mitchell was at least solid against the run. Nap Harris does nothing very well.

Think he'll be good in Denver?

I'd ****ing hope so genius, considering they use a blocking scheme that emphasizes smaller linemen who can work in space.

He doesn't fit a smashmouth, power run game. Period.

Which games of Dante's should I use? The SEVEN games he played in last year?

You're right on one count: Harris does nothing very well.

And yet he was still just as productive as Mitchell was here in 2006.

Mitchell: 104 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 1 INT

Harris: 116 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 1 INT.

Hammock Parties · 05-15-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

You can't even keep the two separated in your mind, that's how similar they are.

Aw shit.

Mecca · 05-15-2008, 04:13 PM

I just don't think Pollard is capable of being a good player in a cover 2, he has a serious lack of speed and gets beat on deep help because of it...

Drafting a player like him in a cover 2 means he should well be a LB, or a S/LB tweener role player that plays both spots in certain spots but never really starts.

CupidStunt · 05-15-2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE

There is no way in hell Pollard is better than Page. They are light years apart in terms of development.

Page is THE reason we consistently stop Antonio Gates. He's outstanding in coverage, and last year he improved his tackling and starting hitting people.

Pollard has yet to put anything on his resume as a defensive player. He doesn't come close to Page.

Page sucks. Pollard sucks. Page gets a couple fluke interceptions every so often, Pollard doesn't get run over every single snap.

Get a life. Or a girlfriend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE

He was drafted to play both safety positions. And the Chiefs already said he was no reflection on Page or Pollard, but if Pollard doesn't start making plays, Morgan will take his place.

No, Morgan is a free safety.

Their take is worthless. What are they going to say, "We're not real happy with our FS production right now so let me introduce Mr. DaJuan Morgan."

Wait and see. Page sees the bench before Pollard. You can count on that like you can count on WPI hitting .150 on reporting Chiefs news.

BigRock · 05-15-2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefRon

If Surtain is number three, it's probably a good thing because it means that Flowers AND another young guy (Patterson/Brackenridge/Carr) catch on quick and show enough upside to merit pushing Surtain to nickel...

Unless of course it means that Surtain has just lost THAT much speed...

I don't think playing the nickel in a cover 2 is the kind of demotion that people seem to think it is. Obviously it means Surtain wouldn't be starting, but it's not because he can't play or because other guys are better. A lot of times last year they'd bring in a 3rd CB and he'd take Surtain's spot while Surtain covered the slot receiver.

If they want him to be the nickel, it's because they know they can put him on a receiver as opposed to just playing a zone. If Surtain had lost a step and couldn't cover anyone anymore... like, say, Ty Law... they'd never play him at nickel. They'd keep him right where he is, like how they never moved Law around.

If anything, I think it may be easier for young guys to come in and be the starters. There was a scene in Hard Knocks last year where David Gibbs was raving about Brackenridge (I think) because he was playing nickel in a cover 2 as a rookie. If it's that hard a job, at least compared to the starters, putting Surtain there while the young guys start makes a lot of sense.

Hammock Parties · 05-15-2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lj4mvp

Page sees the bench before Pollard.

That is such garbage. The guy is a dynamo in coverage. He's the KEY to our defense when we play the Chargers. He SHUTS DOWN Gates. He's not about to see the bench.

Page has intercepted PEYTON MANNING now twice in his first two NFL seasons. He's the real deal.

Pasta Little Brioni · 05-15-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOATSE

That is such garbage. The guy is a dynamo in coverage. He's the KEY to our defense when we play the Chargers. He SHUTS DOWN Gates. He's not about to see the bench.

Page has intercepted PEYTON MANNING now twice in his first two NFL seasons. He's the real deal.

Agree completely about his contribution in the passing game, but i think some are worried that he is a liability against the run. it's something he can approve on of course, but right now it is a concern.

FAX · 05-15-2008, 05:14 PM

My understanding is that, in the Cover 2, the safeties are, essentially, required to play a deep zone - support the corners deep and react to the run. Although we don't play a pure Cover 2 all the time, it would appear to me that, when we are in that base defense, the safeties have a darn tough job ... particularly when our backers aren't tackling and our d-line can't stop the run. On top of that, last years' corners weren't exactly shutting people down, were they?

Clearly, this defense needs to be built from the inside out. Only when we have linemen who can stand up against the run and corners who can close will we know what kind of safeties we have in the young guys. Otherwise, you're just asking too much from two positions. If Tank and Turk can come around and Dorsey is all he's made out to be, that's a start. Then, all we'd need are a head-cracking MLB and corners who can beat the old lady who swallowed a fly in the 40.

FAX

05-15-2008, 12:40 PM
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $800478	It’s Herm’s defense now http://kan.scout.com/2/754878.html Everyone knows Herm Edwards was brought to Kansas City to restore the tradition of great defense. It was clear from his introductory press conference in January of 2006. "If you’re going to win a championship you have got to have a great defense," Edwards said that day. "There is no doubt about it. Every team I have been involved with had good defenses." Yes, it’s true that head coaches oversee the entire football team, but no one will soon accuse Herm Edwards of being an offensive genius. The Chiefs have spent six of their nine first-day picks under Edwards on the defensive side of the football. His primary mission as KC’s head coach has to been to rebuild a defense that ranked 25th the year before his arrival. Some might argue Edwards has had enough time now. Jeff Fisher’s defense in Tennessee ranked near the bottom of the league in points allowed as recently as 2004 and 2005 and dead last in total yardage in 2006. But by reshaping his defensive roster (mostly the back seven) while Titans fans remained patient, Fisher saw his unit bolt to fifth in total defense a year ago, leading his team back to the playoffs despite a below-average offense. Meanwhile, fans in Kansas City have also remained patient - the Chiefs have drafted 11 defensive players under Edwards’ watch and brought in a long list of free agents (Ty Law, Ron Edwards, James Reed, Alfonso Boone, Donnie Edwards, Napoleon Harris, DeMorrio Williams etc). The defensive coaching staff, save coordinator Gunther Cunningham, has been completely turned over from the Vermeil days. When the Chiefs line up on defense against Tom Brady and Randy Moss this September, 10 of the 11 starters on the field will most likely have arrived in Kansas City under Edwards’ watch. Linebacker Derrick Johnson could be the only holdover from the previous regime (cornerback Patrick Surtain is another possibility, but there's a chance he'll be the third corner this year). In fact, a quick check of KcChiefs.com reveals that Johnson and Surtain will be the only remaining defenders (factoring in the upcoming release/trade of safety Greg Wesley) from the Vermeil era on the entire defensive roster when this season begins. Here is the point – this is Herm’s defense now. The cupboard has been swept clean of the stale fare of years past. There are no more Kendrell Bells or Eric Warfields. No one is waiting for Ryan Sims to turn into something. Instead, we’re waiting for Tank Tyler, Turk McBride and Bernard Pollard to justify their draft position. We’re waiting for Herm to make good on the promise he delivered that same day he was hired. "We are going to play defense because it’s important," he said. "I think especially in the National Football League in the months of November and December, especially when you make it in the playoffs, if you look at the teams that won, what did they do? Play defense." Have the Chiefs been playing defense under Edwards’ watch? Well, no one can turn up their nose at KC's defensive rankings the last two seasons – 16th and 13th – but you know that’s not what Herm wants. He wants what he saw in Tampa Bay, the kind of defense that suffocates even the elite offenses and can carry a marginal offense deep into the playoffs, if not the Super Bowl. It’s interesting that Edwards has built his current defense in that same Tampa Two mold. He now has his three-technique defensive tackle in Glenn Dorsey. The Chiefs see a little bit of John Lynch in Bernard Pollard. When Edwards drafted cornerback Brandon Flowers this April, he compared the rookie to the Cover Two corners the Buccaneers drafted during his time in Tampa – Ronde Barber and Donnie Abraham. The Chiefs dealt their dominant outside pass rusher, their version of Simeon Rice (Jared Allen) this offseason, so there is still obviously work to be done. And more than you might think, when you consider those two months Edwards mentioned when he was hired – November and December – haven’t exactly been great times for Chiefs defenses the last two seasons. During those late-season affairs (18 games in all), Edwards’ Chiefs defenses have given up 20.5 points per game and 343 yards per game. Respectable defense, perhaps, but you know that’s not the goal. The Chiefs want to be dominant. They want to field a championship defense. Is Herm’s defense - full of his players, directed by his coaches, and the one he clearly must take full ownership of now – ready to restore the tradition of great defense in Kansas City? We’ll find out in November and December this year. FRIDAY: Why the Chiefs might struggle to take the next step on defense in 2008.
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05-15-2008, 04:04 PM	#35
CupidStunt offense > defense Join Date: Jul 2005 Casino cash: $-756668	For a guy who sucks off Jarrad Page as much as he does, you'd think he'd be a little lighter on a guy in Pollard who's either better or just as good. I haven't seen a safety in the NFL in the last decade as invisible against the run as Page. Guy is a pure nickel safety with enough ability to pick off a horribly thrown pass every so often. (See every Raiders QB or that Matt Schaub duck.) DaJuan Morgan was drafted (1) to play free safety, not strong safety; and (2) because he was the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE.
Posts: 9,017

05-15-2008, 04:13 PM	#40
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-712950	I just don't think Pollard is capable of being a good player in a cover 2, he has a serious lack of speed and gets beat on deep help because of it... Drafting a player like him in a cover 2 means he should well be a LB, or a S/LB tweener role player that plays both spots in certain spots but never really starts.
Posts: 115,380

05-15-2008, 05:14 PM	#45
FAX testing ... 1, 2, 3 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tennessee Casino cash: $6753759	My understanding is that, in the Cover 2, the safeties are, essentially, required to play a deep zone - support the corners deep and react to the run. Although we don't play a pure Cover 2 all the time, it would appear to me that, when we are in that base defense, the safeties have a darn tough job ... particularly when our backers aren't tackling and our d-line can't stop the run. On top of that, last years' corners weren't exactly shutting people down, were they? Clearly, this defense needs to be built from the inside out. Only when we have linemen who can stand up against the run and corners who can close will we know what kind of safeties we have in the young guys. Otherwise, you're just asking too much from two positions. If Tank and Turk can come around and Dorsey is all he's made out to be, that's a start. Then, all we'd need are a head-cracking MLB and corners who can beat the old lady who swallowed a fly in the 40. FAX
Posts: 44,492