Cardinals vs. Chicago at Wrigley Field Weekend Thread

[BigRedChief]

I know you Cubbie fans got a a little thread going and we(who have won 10 WS since you have even been to one) have our own thread but I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread to talk smack about the this weekends series

Cardinals vs. Chicago at Wrigley field

1:20 p.m. today FSN Midwest

Braden Looper
RH
Record 10-9
ERA 4.29

Ted Lilly
LH
Record 11-6
ERA 4.35

2:55 p.m. Saturday KTVI (Ch. 2)

Todd Wellemeyer
RH
Record 8-4
ERA 4.01

Carlos Zambrano
RH
Record 12-4
ERA 2.76

7:10 p.m. Sunday ESPN

Chris Carpenter
RH
Record 0-0
ERA 1.00

RyanDempster
RH
Record 12-5
ERA 2.93

Bad idea? Just let it fall away.

[BigRedChief]

Nice win last night. 2 out of 3 on the road going for 3 out of 4 today.

Perez is looking much better with his slider. Another save.

Maybe we can move Wainright into the starting role?

[BigRedChief]

Had enough bad news about the Redbirds lately? Then you may not want to read on...

ESPN's Peter Gammons reports that Cardinals first baseman Albert Pujols' troublesome elbow is bothering him again... but the St. Louis slugger is hopeful that he can make it until the end of the season.

The ultimate disaster scenario for the Birds is that they would stay on the periphery of the race throughout the season, and though they had no real chance to win, Pujols would be unwilling to shut things down and get his wounded wing fixed.

The possibility exists that Pujols could go on indefinitely with the problem. But one has to start to wonder when he's a .332 hitter who averages more than 30 homers and 100 RBIs a year with a bad arm, what would Pujols have done over the last five years if he was completely healthy.
People have incredibly high expectations of Albert because of the way he hit in the clutch early in his career. But I can't help but wonder when he pops the ball up with men on base or whiffs if it's the limitations the bad elbow puts on his swing.

Then again, like they always say, even the best baseball players fail nearly 70 percent of the time. It is the arm that's the problem, or do people just expect so much of one man that this season's pace to hit .350 with 30 home runs can be considered a bad season?

[BigRedChief]

Francisco Samuel not only has an eye-popping fastball he has some eye-popping numbers to his credit for the Palm Beach Cardinals of the High Class A Florida State League.

The 21-year-old hurler, who compliments his fastball with a nasty slider and who is working on a curve, has notched 49 innings since being called up from Quad Cities of the Midwest League. In that time he has racked up 76 strikeouts.

To put things in perspective, 49 innings means 147 total outs were recorded. So Samuel has struck out more than half of the batters who he has retired. He leads his team in strikeouts --- as a reliever. The guy with the second highest K total at Palm Beach is starter Brad Furnish, who has notched 74 -- in 115 innings pitched.

The bad news is that Samuel has walked 39 batters in that stretch, which is too many, although not an obscene number. But, obviously, control is his biggest concern at this point.

Samuel has a 3.10 ERA and a .193 batting average against.
Down in Class A Quad Cities, Pete Parise took over for Samuel and has been getting outs with pinpoint control. In 48 2/3 innings pitched he has allowed 42 hits while striking out 50. He has walked only seven batters all season.

In Class AA Springfield, Fernando Salas has 23 saves in less spectacular fashion. He's given up 51 hits in 64 2/3 innings pitched and allows 1.02 walks and hits per inning pitched.

In AAA Memphis, Adam Wainwright was supposedly being groomed as the Cardinals makeshift closer for the rest of the season. But, after failing to make it through the first inning in his first rehab appearance, he pitched three innings Monday night. Now the word is that he will get his next game action in Springfield where he is to throw about 70 pitches.
So is he going to pitch the last four innings of every game and cut out the middle relief men? I wish.

But it looks like the Cardinals brass has reconsidered yet again and is now conditioning Wainwright to be a starter again.

I guess that means they're happy with Chris Perez's work.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Had enough bad news about the Redbirds lately? Then you may not want to read on...

ESPN's Peter Gammons reports that Cardinals first baseman Albert Pujols' troublesome elbow is bothering him again... but the St. Louis slugger is hopeful that he can make it until the end of the season.

The ultimate disaster scenario for the Birds is that they would stay on the periphery of the race throughout the season, and though they had no real chance to win, Pujols would be unwilling to shut things down and get his wounded wing fixed.

The possibility exists that Pujols could go on indefinitely with the problem. But one has to start to wonder when he's a .332 hitter who averages more than 30 homers and 100 RBIs a year with a bad arm, what would Pujols have done over the last five years if he was completely healthy.
People have incredibly high expectations of Albert because of the way he hit in the clutch early in his career. But I can't help but wonder when he pops the ball up with men on base or whiffs if it's the limitations the bad elbow puts on his swing.

Then again, like they always say, even the best baseball players fail nearly 70 percent of the time. It is the arm that's the problem, or do people just expect so much of one man that this season's pace to hit .350 with 30 home runs can be considered a bad season?

Eventually that elbow is going to need a fixin. I know there was talk before the season of whether or not he'd make it through the whole season, so it's not surprising.

[BigRedChief]

A week ago, the Colorado Rockies acquired Livan Hernandez from the Twins. This week, among other moves, Arizona picked up Adam Dunn from Cincinnati, and Boston addressed its rotation by nabbing Paul Byrd from Cleveland.

So much for that so-called July 31 trade deadline.
It is not as easy to make deals in August. Teams must put players on waivers but deals can be made, and not just little fill-in-the-blank deals. Rather, it's the ones that have impact, both in the short-term and long-term.

It is a time of year where the have-nots look for ways to uncover hope for the future at the expense of a team that is focused on winning in the present.

Contenders, however, are showing less reluctance to give up prospects for deals now, using the logic that if they pick up a quality potential free agent to help down the stretch, they can restock the system in the off-season with the two draft picks they will receive in free-agent compensation.

Arizona officials are quick to point out that with the addition of Dunn, they now are in position to have nine selections in the first three rounds of next June's draft — their original three plus two each for expected Type A free agents Dunn, second baseman Orlando Hudson and closer Brandon Lyon.

Of course the purpose behind adding a Dunn or any other veteran in August is about winning now, not building up the farm system.
Sometimes it works. Most times it doesn't.

Were these 10 deals worth it?

Detroit acquired RHP Doyle Alexander in August 1987, and he went 9-0 with a 1.53 ERA in 11 starts, helping the Tigers win the AL East by two games over Toronto. The Tigers were then knocked off by Minnesota in the ALCS. Alexander was 20-29 with Detroit the next two years and retired.
The price: Atlanta received pitching prospect John Smoltz in return. Smoltz is 210-147 with 154 saves, eight All-Star selections and the 1996 NL Cy Young award.

Boston acquired RHP Larry Andersen on Aug. 30, 1990, and he compiled a 1.23 ERA in 15 appearances for the Red Sox, who won the AL East by two games over Toronto. The Red Sox were swept by Oakland in the ALCS. Andersen left after the season as a free agent.
The price: Houston received 3B prospect Jeff Bagwell, a fourth-round draft choice in 1989 and a .321 minor league hitter who hit only six home runs in 731 at-bats. With the Astros? He was moved to first base, and won the 1991 NL Rookie of the Year and 1994 NL MVP, compiled a .297 average and hit 449 home runs.

Toronto acquired RHP David Cone in 1992, and he was 4-3 with a 2.55 ERA. The Blue Jays did win the first of back-to-back world championships and Cone made four starts. Cone left after the season as a free agent.
The price: The Mets acquired OF Ryan Thompson and 3B Jeff Kent. Thompson appeared in 416 big-league games with six teams spread over nine years. Kent was converted to a second baseman and is still playing. A five-time All-Star and 2000 NL MVP, he has hit 376 career home runs, the most ever for a second baseman.

San Diego acquired LHP Randy Myers in 1998. Myers appeared in only 15 games, working 14 1/3 innings and allowing 10 earned runs. He never pitched again.

The price: The Blue Jays acquired minor-league RHP Brian Loyd, who never got to the big leagues, More important, the team unloaded $16.6 million in salary to Myers, who had two full seasons remaining on his contract. The Padres put in the claim because they said they wanted to block him from another contender, but the only team that had a better record was Atlanta.
San Francisco acquired RHP Steve Bedrosian and INF Rick Parker in 1989. Bedrosian appeared in 40 games and earned 17 saves for the NL West champion Giants, who beat the Cubs in the NLCS before being swept by Oakland in the World Series. Bedrosian had 17 more saves, but a 4.20 ERA for the Giants in 1990 and was traded after the season to Minnesota for RHP John Ard.

The price: Philadelphia received LHPs Terry Mulholland and Dennis Cook, and 3B Charlie Hayes. Mulholland pitched 17 more years in the big leagues, including an All-Star season in 1993. Cook extended his career 13
additional years. Hayes played 12 more seasons in the big leagues.
Oakland acquired OF Ruben Sierra and RHPs Bobby Witt and Jeff Russell in 1992. The three were spare parts for an A's team that lost in the ALCS to Toronto. Witt did fill a rotation spot the next two years for the A's. Sierra was traded after 1995 to the Yankees for Danny Tartabull. Russell left after 1992 as a free agent.


The price: Texas acquired OF Jose Canseco, who was traded in December of 1994 to Boston for OFs Otis Nixon and Luis Ortiz. Canseco spent nine more full seasons in the big leagues, including one back with Oakland in 1997. In one of them -- the 1998 season in Toronto -- he hit 46 home runs.
Philadelphia acquired LHP Jamie Moyer in 2006. Moyer was 5-2 in eight starts even though the Phillies finished 12 games out in the NL East, but he is still going strong at the age of 45.

The price: Seattle received minor league RHPs Andrew Barb and Andy Baldwin. Baldwin is at Triple-A Tacoma this season.
Pittsburgh acquired LHP Zane Smith in 1990. Smith was 6-2 with a 1.30 ERA in 11 games — 10 starts — for the Pirates, who won the NL East, but lost to Atlanta in the NLCS. Smith did pitch four more years with the Pirates, departing as a free agent after 1994.

The price: Montreal received LHP Scott Ruskin, 3B Willie Greene, and OF Moises Alou. Alou is still playing and has hit 337 home runs in 1,940 games since leaving the Pirates. Ruskin and Greene spent time in the big leagues but never established themselves. They were, however, dealt by Montreal, along with OF David Martinez, to Cincinnati for RHPs John Wetteland and Bill Risley in December 1991.

Oakland acquired LHP Rick Honeycutt in 1987. Honeycutt was only 1-4 in seven games — four of them starts — and the A's finished in third place in the AL West in 1987. He averaged 55 games a year out of the bullpen the next six years for the A's, appearing in the postseason in four of those years.

The price: Los Angeles received RHP Tim Belcher, who became a mainstay in the Dodger rotation the next four years and spent 13-plus seasons in the big leagues, going 146-140.
Cleveland acquired 3B Kevin Seitzer in 1996. Seitzer hit .386 in 22 games for the Indians, who won the AL Central by 12½ games but were eliminated by AL wild-card Baltimore in the division series. Seitzer appeared in 64 games with the Indians in 1997 and was granted free agency after the season.

The price: Milwaukee received OF Jeromy Burnitz, who went on to play the next four years in Milwaukee and was traded by the Brewers, along with Mark Sweeney, Jeff D'Amico and Lou Collier, in a three-team deal after the 2001 season which brought INF Lenny Harris, LHP Glendon Rusch and OF Alex Ochoa to the Brewers. Burnitz hit 283 home runs and played in 1,483 games after leaving Cleveland.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

A week ago, the Colorado Rockies acquired Livan Hernandez from the Twins. This week, among other moves, Arizona picked up Adam Dunn from Cincinnati, and Boston addressed its rotation by nabbing Paul Byrd from Cleveland.

So much for that so-called July 31 trade deadline.
It is not as easy to make deals in August. Teams must put players on waivers but deals can be made, and not just little fill-in-the-blank deals. Rather, it's the ones that have impact, both in the short-term and long-term.

It is a time of year where the have-nots look for ways to uncover hope for the future at the expense of a team that is focused on winning in the present.

Contenders, however, are showing less reluctance to give up prospects for deals now, using the logic that if they pick up a quality potential free agent to help down the stretch, they can restock the system in the off-season with the two draft picks they will receive in free-agent compensation.

Arizona officials are quick to point out that with the addition of Dunn, they now are in position to have nine selections in the first three rounds of next June's draft — their original three plus two each for expected Type A free agents Dunn, second baseman Orlando Hudson and closer Brandon Lyon.

Of course the purpose behind adding a Dunn or any other veteran in August is about winning now, not building up the farm system.
Sometimes it works. Most times it doesn't.

Were these 10 deals worth it?

Detroit acquired RHP Doyle Alexander in August 1987, and he went 9-0 with a 1.53 ERA in 11 starts, helping the Tigers win the AL East by two games over Toronto. The Tigers were then knocked off by Minnesota in the ALCS. Alexander was 20-29 with Detroit the next two years and retired.
The price: Atlanta received pitching prospect John Smoltz in return. Smoltz is 210-147 with 154 saves, eight All-Star selections and the 1996 NL Cy Young award.

Boston acquired RHP Larry Andersen on Aug. 30, 1990, and he compiled a 1.23 ERA in 15 appearances for the Red Sox, who won the AL East by two games over Toronto. The Red Sox were swept by Oakland in the ALCS. Andersen left after the season as a free agent.
The price: Houston received 3B prospect Jeff Bagwell, a fourth-round draft choice in 1989 and a .321 minor league hitter who hit only six home runs in 731 at-bats. With the Astros? He was moved to first base, and won the 1991 NL Rookie of the Year and 1994 NL MVP, compiled a .297 average and hit 449 home runs.

Toronto acquired RHP David Cone in 1992, and he was 4-3 with a 2.55 ERA. The Blue Jays did win the first of back-to-back world championships and Cone made four starts. Cone left after the season as a free agent.
The price: The Mets acquired OF Ryan Thompson and 3B Jeff Kent. Thompson appeared in 416 big-league games with six teams spread over nine years. Kent was converted to a second baseman and is still playing. A five-time All-Star and 2000 NL MVP, he has hit 376 career home runs, the most ever for a second baseman.

San Diego acquired LHP Randy Myers in 1998. Myers appeared in only 15 games, working 14 1/3 innings and allowing 10 earned runs. He never pitched again.

The price: The Blue Jays acquired minor-league RHP Brian Loyd, who never got to the big leagues, More important, the team unloaded $16.6 million in salary to Myers, who had two full seasons remaining on his contract. The Padres put in the claim because they said they wanted to block him from another contender, but the only team that had a better record was Atlanta.
San Francisco acquired RHP Steve Bedrosian and INF Rick Parker in 1989. Bedrosian appeared in 40 games and earned 17 saves for the NL West champion Giants, who beat the Cubs in the NLCS before being swept by Oakland in the World Series. Bedrosian had 17 more saves, but a 4.20 ERA for the Giants in 1990 and was traded after the season to Minnesota for RHP John Ard.

The price: Philadelphia received LHPs Terry Mulholland and Dennis Cook, and 3B Charlie Hayes. Mulholland pitched 17 more years in the big leagues, including an All-Star season in 1993. Cook extended his career 13
additional years. Hayes played 12 more seasons in the big leagues.
Oakland acquired OF Ruben Sierra and RHPs Bobby Witt and Jeff Russell in 1992. The three were spare parts for an A's team that lost in the ALCS to Toronto. Witt did fill a rotation spot the next two years for the A's. Sierra was traded after 1995 to the Yankees for Danny Tartabull. Russell left after 1992 as a free agent.


The price: Texas acquired OF Jose Canseco, who was traded in December of 1994 to Boston for OFs Otis Nixon and Luis Ortiz. Canseco spent nine more full seasons in the big leagues, including one back with Oakland in 1997. In one of them -- the 1998 season in Toronto -- he hit 46 home runs.
Philadelphia acquired LHP Jamie Moyer in 2006. Moyer was 5-2 in eight starts even though the Phillies finished 12 games out in the NL East, but he is still going strong at the age of 45.

The price: Seattle received minor league RHPs Andrew Barb and Andy Baldwin. Baldwin is at Triple-A Tacoma this season.
Pittsburgh acquired LHP Zane Smith in 1990. Smith was 6-2 with a 1.30 ERA in 11 games — 10 starts — for the Pirates, who won the NL East, but lost to Atlanta in the NLCS. Smith did pitch four more years with the Pirates, departing as a free agent after 1994.

The price: Montreal received LHP Scott Ruskin, 3B Willie Greene, and OF Moises Alou. Alou is still playing and has hit 337 home runs in 1,940 games since leaving the Pirates. Ruskin and Greene spent time in the big leagues but never established themselves. They were, however, dealt by Montreal, along with OF David Martinez, to Cincinnati for RHPs John Wetteland and Bill Risley in December 1991.

Oakland acquired LHP Rick Honeycutt in 1987. Honeycutt was only 1-4 in seven games — four of them starts — and the A's finished in third place in the AL West in 1987. He averaged 55 games a year out of the bullpen the next six years for the A's, appearing in the postseason in four of those years.

The price: Los Angeles received RHP Tim Belcher, who became a mainstay in the Dodger rotation the next four years and spent 13-plus seasons in the big leagues, going 146-140.
Cleveland acquired 3B Kevin Seitzer in 1996. Seitzer hit .386 in 22 games for the Indians, who won the AL Central by 12½ games but were eliminated by AL wild-card Baltimore in the division series. Seitzer appeared in 64 games with the Indians in 1997 and was granted free agency after the season.

The price: Milwaukee received OF Jeromy Burnitz, who went on to play the next four years in Milwaukee and was traded by the Brewers, along with Mark Sweeney, Jeff D'Amico and Lou Collier, in a three-team deal after the 2001 season which brought INF Lenny Harris, LHP Glendon Rusch and OF Alex Ochoa to the Brewers. Burnitz hit 283 home runs and played in 1,483 games after leaving Cleveland.

With this record of bad deals I'm really glad we stayed put especially since it didn't even mention our Mulder deadline deal.

[StcChief]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

With this record of bad deals I'm really glad we stayed put especially since it didn't even mention our Mulder deadline deal.

yeah.....like drudging up a bad dream.... Mulder for Harren wow where would we be now with Harren

[BigRedChief]

Carpenter goes back on DL, this time with strained shoulder but Perez is pitching lights out in the "closer" role and we have won 4 out of 5 road games.

Perez holds up then we could have....

If we had a rotation of Wainright/Lohse/Loope/Wellenmyer in a playoff series and if out bats respond like they are capable of......we can contend against anyone. Especially if Carp can come back this season and help us out with some spot starting.