Chiefs Players: Don't Blame Herm

[beach tribe]

Originally Posted by KCJohnny

Pretty disappointing to ascribe Stockhold Syndrome and political motivations to the players' endorsement of Herm. The only reason I changed my mind about Herm is that I was lucky enough to have breakfast with Brian Billick in FEB 08 while I was in Baghdad and he told us that Herm was deeply respected around the NFL as a quality, character leader and that the Chiefs were lucky to have him.

Now if if any of you knuckleheads have won a SB like coach Billick, please show me where he was wrong.

Maybe I'm just a delusional homer, but statements made in the combat zone often have a serious, sincere quality. Vets, help me out here.

Dude, we've heard the story. The fact BB doesn't trash the guy, doesn't make him a good coach. The fact that he's well respected does not make him a good coach. His win loss record tells the story....Period.

[crazycoffey]

Originally Posted by beach tribe

Dude, we've heard the story. The fact BB doesn't trash the guy, doesn't make him a good coach. The fact that he's well respected does not make him a good coach. His win loss record tells the story....Period.

New GM keeps him or brings in someone new, I won't really care either way. I think herm is likeable and doing alot of good here, this year is remarkably different looking than last year. And the losses were based upon different things. So I don't, personally, say win or loss record is the only way to measure him, not after a these last two seasons, it's a tainted stat. IMO anyway.

[beach tribe]

Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey

New GM keeps him or brings in someone new, I won't really care either way. I think herm is likeable and doing alot of good here, this year is remarkably different looking than last year. And the losses were based upon different things. So I don't, personally, say win or loss record is the only way to measure him, not after a these last two seasons, it's a tainted stat. IMO anyway.

When the record over a 2 yr span is that bad, it tells a lot. Not that his record should have been good, but a good caoch will find a way to win some of those close games. Herm's teams find ways to lose them.

[crazycoffey]

Originally Posted by beach tribe

When the record over a 2 yr span is that bad, it tells a lot. Not that his record should have been good, but a good caoch will find a way to win some of those close games. Herm's teams find ways to lose them.

I understand that - but IMO its just a surface look. Last year sucked, it was more carl's way than herm's way (FA > Draft) - then this year seemed to flip that (draft > FA) and carl was being shown the door. I see changes with our football team that are positive and can be attributed to Herm.

I see those negatives like you do too, and most of that is his responsibility. 85-95% of it. So if the new GM wants him to go - it'll be ok. BUT if the new GM gets bought in and we see year two of a truely Herm plan, I'm ok with that too.

In fact, because I know this years players and see this years changes - I'm more interested to see that second plan of action play out, rather than start again for the third year in a row. But that may just be me.

[beach tribe]

Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey

I understand that - but IMO its just a surface look. Last year sucked, it was more carl's way than herm's way (FA > Draft) - then this year seemed to flip that (draft > FA) and carl was being shown the door. I see changes with our football team that are positive and can be attributed to Herm.

I see those negatives like you do too, and most of that is his responsibility. 85-95% of it. So if the new GM wants him to go - it'll be ok. BUT if the new GM gets bought in and we see year two of a truely Herm plan, I'm ok with that too.

In fact, because I know this years players and see this years changes - I'm more interested to see that second plan of action play out, rather than start again for the third year in a row. But that may just be me.

I see some good things he has done as well. It's not all negative in my mind, and I think we could see a big turn around next season, which is one of the reasons I want him gone now. I think he could get us to 8-8 next season, and that might earn him an extension, and that's what I don't want. I do not want him to get that extension, and then squander away the good young team that is being built with his horrible gameday coaching. I can envision us losing to an inferior team in the POs because of him. That's why it's best to axe him now, and hire someone who can take us to the promised land.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by beach tribe

I see some good things he has done as well. It's not all negative in my mind, and I think we could see a big turn around next season, which is one of the reasons I want him gone now. I think he could get us to 8-8 next season, and that might earn him an extension, and that's what I don't want. I do not want him to get that extension, and then squander away the good young team that is being built with his horrible gameday coaching. I can envision us losing to an inferior team in the POs because of him. That's why it's best to axe him now, and hire someone who can take us to the promised land.

This mindset is quite fascinating to me. Many people have said they don't want Herm here next season, because they're afraid he'll win too many games and end up with an extension.

OK?

You think we could have a big turnaround, get over .500, and have a good young team (built by Herm). But you don't want the guy that made that happen? You're afraid we'd eventually lose in the playoffs? We've only been to the playoffs twice in the last decade, but another playoff appearance wouldn't be good enough for you? For shit's sake.... I think the only way some people will be happy is if a new coach came in and took us to the Superbowl the first year with every draft pick in the pro bowl.... No time for progress, we can't be losing a playoff game... that'd be terrible...

I just can't understand how you can wish for a coach to get fired because you're afraid he'll win too many games next year and deserve a contract extension... That's just putting dislike for the guy ahead of the team's progress....

[Dartgod]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

I think the only way some people will be happy is if a new coach came in and took us to the Superbowl the first year with every draft pick in the pro bowl....

Print 'em!

[Reerun_KC]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

This mindset is quite fascinating to me. Many people have said they don't want Herm here next season, because they're afraid he'll win too many games and end up with an extension.

OK?

You think we could have a big turnaround, get over .500, and have a good young team (built by Herm). But you don't want the guy that made that happen? You're afraid we'd eventually lose in the playoffs? We've only been to the playoffs twice in the last decade, but another playoff appearance wouldn't be good enough for you? For shit's sake.... I think the only way some people will be happy is if a new coach came in and took us to the Superbowl the first year with every draft pick in the pro bowl.... No time for progress, we can't be losing a playoff game... that'd be terrible...

I just can't understand how you can wish for a coach to get fired because you're afraid he'll win too many games next year and deserve a contract extension... That's just putting dislike for the guy ahead of the team's progress....

I will protect you Herm! KC Fish to the rescue!

[Brock]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

This mindset is quite fascinating to me. Many people have said they don't want Herm here next season, because they're afraid he'll win too many games and end up with an extension.

OK?

You think we could have a big turnaround, get over .500, and have a good young team (built by Herm). But you don't want the guy that made that happen? You're afraid we'd eventually lose in the playoffs? We've only been to the playoffs twice in the last decade, but another playoff appearance wouldn't be good enough for you? For shit's sake.... I think the only way some people will be happy is if a new coach came in and took us to the Superbowl the first year with every draft pick in the pro bowl.... No time for progress, we can't be losing a playoff game... that'd be terrible...

I just can't understand how you can wish for a coach to get fired because you're afraid he'll win too many games next year and deserve a contract extension... That's just putting dislike for the guy ahead of the team's progress....

I think you'll get another season just like this one if Herm is brought back. That's why I don't want him brought back. He's a bad gameday coach.

[beach tribe]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

This mindset is quite fascinating to me. Many people have said they don't want Herm here next season, because they're afraid he'll win too many games and end up with an extension.

OK?

You think we could have a big turnaround, get over .500, and have a good young team (built by Herm). But you don't want the guy that made that happen? You're afraid we'd eventually lose in the playoffs? We've only been to the playoffs twice in the last decade, but another playoff appearance wouldn't be good enough for you? For shit's sake.... I think the only way some people will be happy is if a new coach came in and took us to the Superbowl the first year with every draft pick in the pro bowl.... No time for progress, we can't be losing a playoff game... that'd be terrible...

I just can't understand how you can wish for a coach to get fired because you're afraid he'll win too many games next year and deserve a contract extension... That's just putting dislike for the guy ahead of the team's progress....

I want to win a SUPER BOWL. Herm is a Marty clone, only he isn't HALF as good as Marty. I don't care about a PO appearance, or 1 PO win. I don't want a coach who makes the POs, and plays not to lose. I do not dislike Herm. I just don't have any faith in him winning a SB. How hard is that to understand? I'm sorry but unlike you, and Carl, I don't consider making the POs a success. There is only 1 winner every year, and I don't think Herm will ever be the last man standing. It's nothing personal.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by beach tribe

His win loss record tells the story....Period.

No, it doesn't.

Was Dick Vermeil a shitty coach in Philadelphia for the first four years of his tenure? Was Vermeil a shitty coach in St. Louis his first two years?

I could go on and on and on around the league. Every situation is different. I don't think you'd find anyone working in the NFL that would compare Herm Edwards to coaches like Frank Gansz, Frank Kush, Richie Kotite, etc. Edwards may not be a great coach at this point but when given adequate players, he's certainly average or slightly above.

The Chiefs were in dire need of rebuilding in 2006, yet the front office decided to continue their same ways until 2008. You can't get blood from a turnip.

And anyone that expected more than 3 wins from a team that just traded its best player and is playing 17 rookies was fooling themselves.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

No, it doesn't.

Was Dick Vermeil a shitty coach in Philadelphia for the first four years of his tenure? Was Vermeil a shitty coach in St. Louis his first two years?

I could go on and on and on around the league. Every situation is different. I don't think you'd find anyone working in the NFL that would compare Herm Edwards to coaches like Frank Gansz, Frank Kush, Richie Kotite, etc. Edwards may not be a great coach at this point but when given adequate players, he's certainly average or slightly above.

The Chiefs were in dire need of rebuilding in 2006, yet the front office decided to continue their same ways until 2008. You can't get blood from a turnip.

And anyone that expected more than 3 wins from a team that just traded its best player and is playing 17 rookies was fooling themselves.

To be fair, this team could easily be 7-8 or 8-7 if they had a decent coaching staff, IMHO.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Coach

To be fair, this team could easily be 7-8 or 8-7 if they had a decent coaching staff, IMHO.

I don't see it that way.

Maybe if the right side of the offensive line wasn't pure and utter shit. And maybe if the Chiefs actually had a linebacking corp AND one true pass rushing defensive end.

To be quite honest, I don't even know how they've managed to be so close in so many games while lacking so much talent.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I don't see it that way.

Maybe if the right side of the offensive line wasn't pure and utter shit. And maybe if the Chiefs actually had a linebacking corp AND one true pass rushing defensive end.

To be quite honest, I don't even know how they've managed to be so close in so many games while lacking so much talent.

I understand your opinion, and I respect that. The right side of the O-line is "questionable" at best to midly put it. However, if we had a defense, like you mentioned, it is possible. No argument here on the defense.

Yet, at the same time, everybody knows that Herm doesn't play to win the game. The Chiefs never had trouble being the aggressers in the first half of the game. Yet after halftime, they couldn't score. How much of this is attributed to coaching philosophy changing/adjustment? If the Chiefs had a decent coach who could manage the game clock a bit better, and doesn't go to a shell in the 2nd half, who knows where the Chiefs would be as of this point.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Coach

I understand your opinion, and I respect that. The right side of the O-line is "questionable" at best to midly put it. However, if we had a defense, like you mentioned, it is possible. No argument here on the defense.

Yet, at the same time, everybody knows that Herm doesn't play to win the game. The Chiefs never had trouble being the aggressers in the first half of the game. Yet after halftime, they couldn't score. How much of this is attributed to coaching philosophy changing/adjustment? If the Chiefs had a decent coach who could manage the game clock a bit better, and doesn't go to a shell in the 2nd half, who knows where the Chiefs would be as of this point.

Again, I think it comes down to talent. It's true that the Chiefs scored 28 points in the first half and only 3 in the second. Put let's put aside the offense for a second. The defense has been pitiful. Giving up 38 points twice this season and not being able to hold leads. The Chiefs have tried since 2001 to rectify this defense with no success. The common denominator? Carl Peterson.

The Dick Vermeil/Al Saunders offense and the Chan Gailey offense has put the Chiefs in position to win more times than not. Yet, the defense never fails to hold. The offense has had just as much roster turnover (or more) during this decade yet the defense just won't improve.

If Herm's fate is to be fired, he's fired. But the bottom line is that the Chiefs need to acquire a playmaker on the defensive side of the ball AND hire coaches who create a scheme to make the current players more effective.

Otherwise, it won't matter who's the head coach. We'll still have the same results.