Mike Vrabel

[Amnorix]

As I did when Pioli came over, I'll post a separate thread because I think it's fair to say that I might have just a little more knowledge about the guy than most on here.

What you guys have traded for is a very smart, team-driven, reliable and consistent performer able to play both inside and outside linebacker in the 3-4, with championship credentials and very good leadership skills.

In my opinion, the reasons that the Chiefs have made this trade are as follows:

1. Veteran leadership. The Chiefs are VERY young. Rather than yet another young draft pick player, the Chiefs have decided that even though he is on the downside of his career and will only play for another year or two, it is important to bring in someone who can show the younger players HOW to practice, HOW to review film, HOW to prepare for games and be coachable, and HOW to play 3-4 linebacker.

2. Defensive flexibility. Vrabel can play both inside and outside in the 3-4 with relatively equal facility. A solid performer, he can set the edge, rush the passer and play hardnosed in the middle.

3. Position flexibility. In addition to his inside/outside talents in the 3-4, he also plays TE in goal line situations, showing the rest of the team that he is able and willing to do WHATEVER the coaches ask to help the team win.

He is, of course, on the downside of his career. Last year there was a very noticeable dropoff in his ability to make impact plays. Whereas in years gone by he stood out on the field for making key plays, last year he wasn't very noticeable. That's good in that you didn't often look at him as having screwed something up, but it's bad in that he wasn't making the strip-sacks that had earned him the love of Patriots fans.

Many here denigrate what he will bring ON the field, and wonder why the Chiefs are giving up anything for him. What you need to understand is that as much as they want what he brings on the field, what they are really bringing him here for is what he brings OFF the field. That is what makes him valuable to a ridiculously young, inexperienced Chiefs team.

And when he talks, those young guys will listen. His three rings ensure that. He will also help the coaches enforce their ways inside the locker room, and get the Chiefs players moving and operating in the right direction.

Though Pats fans knew his time was drawing near, we basically feel like there's been a death in teh family. Vrabel was universally loved and respected by Patriots fans, and we're very sad to see him go.

[ChiefRon]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Riddle me this -- WTF incentive does Vrabel have to sign with the Chiefs all else being equal? Oh no -- he'd be with a potential contender if he had a choice, rest assured. Unless you offered alot more money.

Fair enough, if he were cut he wouldn't have come here.

So tell me, since I haven't got a clue.

What veterans did you guys bring in early on in the BB/Pioli era to "teach" the young guys how to win?

I remember Seau, but that was after you had already won a SB or two, wasn't it?

[PHOG]

I think someone could do alot worse in th 7th round than Vrabel, which is the start of a dynasty....he may not be here when it happens, but it's a start...

[el borracho]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Then you're a fool.

The chances that a 6th or 7th pick happens to be anything other than a useless scrub who either doesn't make the team or is cut after a year or three on the practice squad is very high.

Your defense sucks, and your team is barely older than the team at KU. You don't need to have someone teach them how to play in the NFL? You don't want veteran leadership? You don't need a clubhouse enforcer?

And last but not least, you don't seem to have any understanding of the value of PLAYERS that take what the coaches want the players to do, and ENFORCE it in the locker room.

The chances that a 6th or 7th round pick are productive players in 3 years is small; the chance that Vrabel is a productive player in 3 years is non-existant.

While I won't completely discount the value of veteran leadership, I wouldn't give up draft picks to get it. There are plenty of free-agents available and, as I've already stated, I expect the coaches to teach the players. I don't know what you mean by "clubhouse enforcer" so I can't answer that. What is Vrabel going to enforce?

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by el borracho

Well, I did like (not love) the selection of Haley but I am so fundamentally opposed trading for players and this is exponentially compounded in my mind thinking about how high our draft picks are this year and the players we are talking about. Vrabel? He's as old as the hills. Cassel? What has he proven? And I am pissed that we are gifting our valuable picks to the most talented team, not only in the league, but in our conference.

First, and not to be insulting, but you hardly need to worry about making the Patriots stronger. You need to worry about not sucking. Once you stop sucking, then you make take the next step.

Second, high or not, a late round pick is still more likely than not to be a mostly useless warm body.

Third, your team is YOUNG. Really, really, REALLY young. What do you need another really young, late round pick for? What will he add? The probably answer is "nothing". Which is a heck of a lot less than Vrabel, who can show the rest of your locker room how to win.

[ChiefRon]

Who says it was a 6th or 7th round pick?

[txhawk]

Originally Posted by el borracho

Bill Parcells is 66 years old and has retired from football 3 different times. He isn't coming here to be our GM and, really, I wouldn't want him to.

This was el borracho's quote last year when I said if we want to make a move at GM we should try and get Parcells to come on board.

We all get some wrong, but i'm leaning toward Pioli's decision making over his.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by ChiefRon

Fair enough, if he were cut he wouldn't have come here.

So tell me, since I haven't got a clue.

What veterans did you guys bring in early on in the BB/Pioli era to "teach" the young guys how to win?

I remember Seau, but that was after you had already won a SB or two, wasn't it?

Yeah, Seau was later, much later.

Keep in mind that the Patriots team Belichick inherited in 2000 was fundamentally different from teh group of kids you have:

1. Starting QB was Drew Bledsoe -- 7 year veteran, pro bowler, and one SB appearance.

2. The team started 2000 just 3 years removed from a SB appearance, with playoff appearances and victories within the last couple of years.

3. Seasoned vets: Bledsoe, Bruschi, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Willie McGinest, Bruce Armstrong,

You've got Tony Gonzalez and a bunch of kids, basically.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by txhawk

This was el borracho's quote last year when I said if we want to make a move at GM we should try and get Parcells to come on board.

We all get some wrong, but i'm leaning toward Pioli's decision making over his.

[rad]

Originally Posted by el borracho

The chances that a 6th or 7th round pick are productive players in 3 years is small; the chance that Vrabel is a productive player in 3 years is non-existant.

While I won't completely discount the value of veteran leadership, I wouldn't give up draft picks to get it. There are plenty of free-agents available and, as I've already stated, I expect the coaches to teach the players. I don't know what you mean by "clubhouse enforcer" so I can't answer that. What is Vrabel going to enforce?

I think the idea behind it is while Vrabel himself won't be around long, his contributions to our younger players will.

[BradyFTW!]

Originally Posted by ChiefRon

Fair enough, if he were cut he wouldn't have come here.

So tell me, since I haven't got a clue.

What veterans did you guys bring in early on in the BB/Pioli era to "teach" the young guys how to win?

I remember Seau, but that was after you had already won a SB or two, wasn't it?

Seau was after we'd won all three. The one that I'd correlate, somewhat, to this trade for Vrabel is Roman Phifer. He had played for the Jets, was familiar with Belichick's defense as a result. The Pats signed him in 2001, and as it worked out he ended up being a starting LB in the first SB, and he was there for all 3 of them.

[PHOG]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Yeah, Seau was later, much later.

Keep in mind that the Patriots team Belichick inherited in 2000 was fundamentally different from teh group of kids you have:

1. Starting QB was Drew Bledsoe -- 7 year veteran, pro bowler, and one SB appearance.

2. The team started 2000 just 3 years removed from a SB appearance, with playoff appearances and victories within the last couple of years.

3. Seasoned vets: Bledsoe, Bruschi, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Willie McGinest, Bruce Armstrong,

You've got Tony Gonzalez and a bunch of kids, basically.

Plus a whiny Waters and a bitch spitter in Johnson

[el borracho]

You are welcome to believe what you wish, txhawk. I still don't think Parcells would have been the answer in KC... don't really think he will be the SuperBowl answer in Miami, either.

[RJ]

Amnorix, I'm sure you're right about all the things Vrabel will be able to provide. He arrives with a great resume.

What I question is whether he will, and why he'd want to.

I just can't imagine that Vrabel is feeling good about coming to a 2-14 team in exchange for a late round draft pick. I hope I'm wrong, but I envision him just showing up to draw a pay check.

[BradyFTW!]

Originally Posted by el borracho

The chances that a 6th or 7th round pick are productive players in 3 years is small; the chance that Vrabel is a productive player in 3 years is non-existant.

While I won't completely discount the value of veteran leadership, I wouldn't give up draft picks to get it. There are plenty of free-agents available and, as I've already stated, I expect the coaches to teach the players. I don't know what you mean by "clubhouse enforcer" so I can't answer that. What is Vrabel going to enforce?

It is the coach's job to teach the players, but if you can't understand the inherent value in having experienced, productive, disciplined, and hard-working veterans with past success to hold the young guys accountable, then I don't know what to tell you. It's a time-tested method for building a strong foundation in just about every team sport.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by el borracho

The chances that a 6th or 7th round pick are productive players in 3 years is small; the chance that Vrabel is a productive player in 3 years is non-existant.

You're right, but what Vrabel can teach your entire team, especially your defense, about hwo to play the 3-4 and how to WIN in the NFL is HUGE. A late round pick needs to be shown where the bathroom is.

While I won't completely discount the value of veteran leadership, I wouldn't give up draft picks to get it. There are plenty of free-agents available and, as I've already stated, I expect the coaches to teach the players. I don't know what you mean by "clubhouse enforcer" so I can't answer that. What is Vrabel going to enforce?

Then you don't understand the NFL at a very fundamental level.

The NFL isn't the NBA or MLB. There are 60 players (including practice squad). It's not a bunch of 1:1 matchups, and the most talent doesn't always win. Read some books about NFL teambuilding and you'll understand this deal alot better.

Vrabel will give you guys stuff that you'll never see, know or understand. Will it definitely work? No. But it's a piece to the puzzle.