Chiefs sign Zach Thomas

[phisherman]

http://www.kansascity.com/news/break...y/1137526.html

The Chiefs have agreed to terms with linebacker Zach Thomas.

Thomas, 35, is a 13-year veteran who started 14 games for the Dallas Cowboys last season and has made 20.5 career sacks. He spent the first 12 years of his career with the Miami Dolphins.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Wow. "Just Fisting Myself" is really drawing the love today!

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

Suggs, and Hawk, are examples of players who were drafted to play linebacker. Suggs was drafted to play LB and/or DE. Hawk WAS drafted in the top 5 and the Lions would certainly like to have drafted Suggs rather than Rogers.

WTF is so difficult about this for you people to grasp? You're all so damned caught up in the details that don't mean a damned thing that you can't see the blatantly obvious.

Because you are still trying to suggest that Suggs is a LB (and/or DE), nevermind that he is one of 16 OLBs in the 3-4 who are DEs (who happen to play some LB). 16 of 16 OLBs in a 3-4 were DEs converted into LBs.

You don't understand why that's important? It's because NFL teams are saying... if you're going to be a 3-4 OLB, we're going to teach pass rushers how to play a little bit of LB.

Again, the fact that you don't see any difference between a 4-3 OLB and a 3-4 OLB suggests that you're the one that doesn't grasp defense.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Then you are an idiot.

The Lions run a 4-3 defense. 4-3 Defenses use 230-240 pound OLBs who are fast and can play sideline-to-sideline. They have to have pure linebacker instincts and they have to be versatile enough to cover tight ends. They are typically not as good at shedding blocks and they blitz only as an element of surprise. A 3-4 OLB/DE (a "hybrid") is a pass rusher who plays coverage moreso as an element of surprise. They are 260+-pound former DEs whose PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY is to rush the passer and know pass rushing technique, and every once in a while they take on some LB responsibility. If Suggs played in a 4-3 like Detroit, he would either be an undersized third-down pass rusher, or he would be an overweight, slow-as-shit OLB. He would have been a better pick than Rogers, but he would have been a huge bust in Detroit. Just the same, if AJ Hawk played 3-4 OLB, he would be an extremely undersized DE/LB who consistently got destroyed in the trenches and probably could generate 3 or 4 sacks at the most.

Hey, just out of curiosity, since you're so brilliant, how much did Jason Taylor weigh when he was playing a 4-3 DE in Miami?

Moron.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

You obviously have no understanding of a 3-4 defense. A "hybrid" is the same exact position Merriman, Ware, Adalius Thomas, Vernon Gholston, Lamar Woodley, Mike Vrabel,

Actually, when I referred to "Hybrid", I was referring to the hybridized way in which the Suggs grievance was resolved. He was paid as a DE/LB, which is the hybrid. Again, had you actually bothered to read the posts, you'd have known that.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

What do they all have in common? Oh yeah, they all played DE in college. So stop acting like these are OLBs like AJ Hawk or Derrick Johnson. Are you really going to tell me that Derrick Johnson could play the role Merriman plays and get 10+ sacks a year? And are you really going to tell me that Merriman could play DJ's role and cover tight ends on a huge chunk of the snaps? A "hybrid" DE only means they are Defensive Ends who take on some LB responsibility. You even said so yourself, given that Suggs argued he took more snaps as a DE than as a LB. That is completely true.


Hawk is a 4-3 OLB
Suggs is a 3-4 DE/OLB

If you really want to argue they're the same, then God help you.

I didn't say they were the same, other than both being linebackers. Seriously, reading comprehension would go a long way for you, I think.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Because you are still trying to suggest that Suggs is a LB (and/or DE), nevermind that he is one of 16 OLBs in the 3-4 who are DEs (who happen to play some LB). 16 of 16 OLBs in a 3-4 were DEs converted into LBs.

You don't understand why that's important? It's because NFL teams are saying... if you're going to be a 3-4 OLB, we're going to teach pass rushers how to play a little bit of LB.

Again, the fact that you don't see any difference between a 4-3 OLB and a 3-4 OLB suggests that you're the one that doesn't grasp defense.

Suggs IS a linebacker, in the 3-4. I never claimed he was identical to a 4-3 LB. Again, if you people would read posts rather than just jumping on people, this sort of wasted time could be avoided.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

Hey, just out of curiosity, since you're so brilliant, how much did Jason Taylor weigh when he was playing a 4-3 DE in Miami?

Moron.

And you're the moron that thinks that Suggs could play OLB in a 4-3 in Detroit. Tell me how many 260+ pounders are playing OLB in a 4-3.

Actually, when I referred to "Hybrid", I was referring to the hybridized way in which the Suggs grievance was resolved. He was paid as a DE/LB, which is the hybrid. Again, had you actually bothered to read the posts, you'd have known that.

You keep referring to Suggs and Hawk as playing the same position, even though it couldn't be further from the truth. All 3-4 OLBs play the hybrid position. It is what they call a "tweener"--a DE that scouts thought was too small to play DE in a 4-3, but too big to play LB.

Terrell Suggs is a DE who was asked to play "tweener". As was Merriman, Ware, and every 3-4 OLB/DE "tweener" in the NFL (16 in total)
AJ Hawk is an OLB who was asked to play OLB

I didn't say they were the same, other than both being linebackers. Seriously, reading comprehension would go a long way for you, I think.

And again, you are suggesting that 4-3 LBs and 3-4 LBs are both "linebackers." They're not!

3-4 OLBs are asked to take on much more DE responsibility. Therefore, they carry much higher draft value than a LB. DEs are one of the most highly sought after prospects in any given draft. LBs are usually taken toward the middle of the first round. Consistently.

Now, the only reason 3-4 OLBs tend to drop lower in the draft is because only a handful of teams actually run a 3-4 defense (8 teams). So let's sum it up. Patrick Willis fell to #11 because no NFL team wanted to reach for a LB in the top 10. Terrell Suggs dropped to #6 because you have to run a 3-4 to get value from him.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

And you're the moron that thinks that Suggs could play OLB in a 4-3 in Detroit. Tell me how many 260+ pounders are playing OLB in a 4-3.

Ok, please tell me you've never bred, because this type of stupidity should never be passed on. Suggs plays DE in a 4-3, not OLB. Hence the comparison with Jason Taylor, for example.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

You keep referring to Suggs and Hawk as playing the same position, even though it couldn't be further from the truth. All 3-4 OLBs play the hybrid position. It is what they call a "tweener"--a DE that scouts thought was too small to play DE in a 4-3, but too big to play LB.

Actually, I don't believe that I've ever referred to Suggs and Hawk as playing the same position. Linebacker is a term which covers multiple positions, and those positions are different depending upon how you're running your defense. Again, if you would just take the time to actually read....

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Terrell Suggs is a DE who was asked to play "tweener". As was Merriman, Ware, and every 3-4 OLB/DE "tweener" in the NFL (16 in total)
AJ Hawk is an OLB who was asked to play OLB


And again, you are suggesting that 4-3 LBs and 3-4 LBs are both "linebackers." They're not!

Stupidest line of the day, and that took some doing. Of course they are both linebackers. But, since you seem ready to change the world, start with Bill Belichick, since he's used both converted DEs AND traditional linebackers in his 3-4 systems, both inside and out. Clearly, that guy just doesn't know what the hell he's doing with defenses.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

3-4 OLBs are asked to take on much more DE responsibility. Therefore, they carry much higher draft value than a LB. DEs are one of the most highly sought after prospects in any given draft. LBs are usually taken toward the middle of the first round. Consistently.

Now, the only reason 3-4 OLBs tend to drop lower in the draft is because only a handful of teams actually run a 3-4 defense (8 teams). So let's sum it up. Patrick Willis fell to #11 because no NFL team wanted to reach for a LB in the top 10. Terrell Suggs dropped to #6 because you have to run a 3-4 to get value from him.

If only any of this had something to do with this thread, I'd pretend to care. But, since it doesn't....

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

Suggs, and Hawk, are examples of players who were drafted to play linebacker. Suggs was drafted to play LB and/or DE. Hawk WAS drafted in the top 5 and the Lions would certainly like to have drafted Suggs rather than Rogers.

WTF is so difficult about this for you people to grasp? You're all so damned caught up in the details that don't mean a damned thing that you can't see the blatantly obvious.

The only player with a skillset even ROUGHLY equivalent to Curry's to be drafted in the Top 5 in the past 20 years is AJ Hawk.

And you're going to sit here and tell me you'd be HAPPY with AJ ****ing Hawk at #3 overall?

You're high, and it's not good shit either.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

The only player with a skillset even ROUGHLY equivalent to Curry's to be drafted in the Top 5 in the past 20 years is AJ Hawk.

And you're going to sit here and tell me you'd be HAPPY with AJ ****ing Hawk at #3 overall?

You're high, and it's not good shit either.

Whoa! Slow down there, slick. I never said that I thought the Chiefs should draft Curry. Frankly, if I were the Chiefs, my first leaning would be to Raji. That's never been my point in all of this, which is why I kept asking you people to actually read my posts.

This is a terrible season for top end prospects. There's no real difference between #1 and #21, except at left tackle and, maybe, at QB. So, since nobody is likely to trade for the #3 spot as of now, bitching about whomever is picked based upon 'positional value' is moronic. This is the kind of year where you take the player that you feel will most likely succeeed in your system, taking need into account. Other than kicker or punter, position shouldn't mean a damned thing.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

Other than kicker or punter, position shouldn't mean a damned thing.

Well it does.

At least to teams that care about winning.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Well it does.

At least to teams that care about winning.

No, it doesn't. That's pretty clear throughout history, actually.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

No, it doesn't. That's pretty clear throughout history, actually.

Pretty clear by what? The massive volume of non-pass rushing LB's drafted in the top 5?

You're right about one thing - history is VERY clear on this subject.

[bdeg]

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
Other than kicker or punter, position shouldn't mean a damned thing.

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

No, it doesn't. That's pretty clear throughout history, actually.

So then guards are picked as often as QB's in the top 5?

I agree with most of your points, though I haven't read through the entire thread. But a smaller difference in value doesn't mean there isn't any.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Pretty clear by what? The massive volume of non-pass rushing LB's drafted in the top 5?

You're right about one thing - history is VERY clear on this subject.

If positional value were all that mattered, no QB would make it past the first round.

[chiefzilla1501]

[QUOTE=Just Passin' By;5666521]Ok, please tell me you've never bred, because this type of stupidity should never be passed on. Suggs plays DE in a 4-3, not OLB. Hence the comparison with Jason Taylor, for example.

The Ravens run a 3-4, genius. Type in "Baltimore Ravens" depth chart and tell me how many times you see Suggs listed as a DE.

Jason Taylor is a DE in a 4-3. He does not play even close to the same position as Suggs. Taylor plays all of his snaps with his hands on the ground. Suggs does not.

Actually, I don't believe that I've ever referred to Suggs and Hawk as playing the same position. Linebacker is a term which covers multiple positions, and those positions are different depending upon how you're running your defense. Again, if you would just take the time to actually read....

You have implied it. Trust me. Everyone on this board knows that this is exactly what you've been saying. You have been saying all along that Suggs and Mayo and Rivers are examples of linebackers who should have been drafted in the top 5. And what I am AGAIN reiterating is that Rivers and Mayo are traditional, hands-off-the-ground, LBs who are drafted because of their speed and instincts. Suggs was drafted to be a pass rusher first and foremost. You can't make that comparison. Again, 3-4 OLBs carry high draft value. 4-3 OLBs or 3-4 ILBs typically do not.

Stupidest line of the day, and that took some doing. Of course they are both linebackers. But, since you seem ready to change the world, start with Bill Belichick, since he's used both converted DEs AND traditional linebackers in his 3-4 systems, both inside and out. Clearly, that guy just doesn't know what the hell he's doing with defenses.

Yes, and almost all 3-4 OLBs are DEs, and almost all 3-4 ILBs are you're more traditional 4-3 LBs. Don't act like traditional LBs have sometimes played OLB or that DEs have sometimes played ILB. Bellichick used Mike Vrabel, who was a 4-3 DE at Ohio State, to be his OLB. Notice a trend? Again. 3-4 OLBs are not traditional LBs. Almost 100% of the time, they are DEs that play a little bit of linebacker. You apparently can't see the enormous difference between a traditional LB and a 3-4 OLB. 4-3 ROLB, MLB, LOLB are similar to 3-4 RILB and LILB. 3-4 ROLBs and LOLBs are entirely different.

If only any of this had something to do with this thread, I'd pretend to care. But, since it doesn't....

You keep saying that Detroit should have drafted Terrell Suggs to play 4-3 DE. And I'm pointing out that there's a very good likelihood he wouldn't have been that good in Detroit, because he would play a COMPLETELY different position.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by bdeg

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
Other than kicker or punter, position shouldn't mean a damned thing.

So then guards are picked as often as QB's in the top 5?

I agree with most of your points, though I haven't read through the entire thread. But a smaller difference in value doesn't mean there isn't any.

I agree that teams take position into account. My initial point to htismaqe was that this was an unusual year and it shouldn't hold water this season. Naturally, instead of actually responding to that, he changed the argument to "winning teams" instead of remaining focused on one specific season.

The reality is that all teams value somewhat differently. That's why the Raiders drafted a kicker as high as they did, for example. However, people here are being so ridiculously stubborn about non-issues that they can't even admit to blatant truths about minor points right now.