Chiefs Clark Judge: Rating smartest, boldest, scariest offseason moves - Page 25

**DaneMcCloud** · 05-14-2009, 12:01 PM

Rating smartest, boldest, scariest offseason moves
May 13, 2009
By Clark Judge
CBSSports.com Senior Writer

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11743195

Five boldest moves

Kansas City hiring Scott Pioli

Some people automatically put this one in the win column. Not me. Not after Charlie Weis fizzled at Notre Dame and Romeo Crennel bombed out in Cleveland. OK, so they were former New England coaches, and Pioli was a decorated GM. They still fall from the same tree. The question I have is this: How much was Pioli responsible for what happened in New England? "I guess we're about to find out," said one NFC general manager.

The good news is that Thomas Dimitroff had New England ties, too, and he circled the bases in his first turn as a GM in Atlanta. The bad news: Pioli's first draft with Kansas City: There are reaches everywhere. He also reversed the team's Get Young Now policy by adding 30-something discards like Bobby Engram, Zach Thomas, Monty Beisel and Mike Vrabel. You can do that when you're at or near the top, like New England. But this is a team that lost 23 of its last 25, for crying out loud.

Five biggest gambles

Kansas City acquiring Matt Cassel

I know what he did with New England. But that was the Patriots, and tell me where you find Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Richard Seymour and Bill Belichick in the 816 area code. Cassel was surrounded by a raft of talent on the field and on the sidelines in New England, and I'm still looking for that support group here. So he produced a couple of 400-yard passing games and won 10 of 15 starts. That was nice. But I want to see him reproduce it here. OK, I know what you're thinking: What do the Chiefs have to lose -- especially when all they surrendered for Cassel and Vrabel was a second-round draft pick? Try this: They're paying Cassel $14.65 million in guaranteed salary. If he turns out to be the next Scott Mitchell I know some bean counters in red suits who will demand explanations.

**DaneMcCloud** · 05-16-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomy3

So, you think the Bucs would have taken Freeman at #3 because he's their guy? Or the Ravens would have taken Flacco at #3 because he's their guy?

I can't speak for them but I'd suppose they'd take Sanchez at #3, not Freeman.

As for the Ravens, Flacco was projected as a second rounder and Baltimore gave up picks to get him in the first.

I think if a team identifies a pick as "their guy", I don't think that 10-15 spots is going to stop them.

Perfect example: Tyson Jackson.

htismaqe · 05-16-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Apparently, you didn't read the quote from Doomy where he stated that Sanchez wasn't good value at #3 but he'd choose him at #15.

Yeah, I did, and to a lesser extent it still applies. The difference between #3 and #15 could be several players/picks. Cleveland got what 2 picks and THREE players to move from #5 to #17? You can't just throw that out and say "if he's worth the #15, he's worth the #3".

SenselessChiefsFan · 05-16-2009, 03:47 PM

He compares Pioli to Dimitroff, but then said the Chiefs had reaches 'everywhere'.

Yeah, reaches everywhere, like the Falcons who 'reached' for Matt Ryan, and who reached for Sam Baker.

They got abused for trading up to take Sam Baker, and for NOT taking Glen Dorsey. I think that worked out pretty well.

I am not saying that the Chiefs draft will be as good as the Falcons, but the Falcons
'reached' in the mind of the 'experts'.... much like the Patriots have 'reached' over the years.

Odd that one of the things that are similar between the Chiefs drafts this year and the Falcons last draft and most of the New England drafts.... judge raised as a 'difference'.

Mecca · 05-16-2009, 04:01 PM

I thought Ryan was the right pick....anyone that was here knows I was all for him going up there.

And when they moved up for Baker they put value on the LT position he was the best one left. But still it was a move to the early 20's.

I just don't see how these situations are the same.

**DaneMcCloud** · 05-16-2009, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISmaqe

Yeah, I did, and to a lesser extent it still applies. The difference between #3 and #15 could be several players/picks. Cleveland got what 2 picks and THREE players to move from #5 to #17? You can't just throw that out and say "if he's worth the #15, he's worth the #3".

Well then Pioli just screwed the Chiefs last month, right?

Just Passin' By · 05-16-2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Well then Pioli just screwed the Chiefs last month, right?

From all the reports I read and/or heard, the Chiefs tried to trade down and couldn't find any takers.

**BigMeatballDave** · 05-16-2009, 04:27 PM

This is one giant Mecca, Hamas, and Dane Bukake thread...

BigRock · 05-16-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

If he's YOUR GUY, you get him.

Whether it's a #3 or #15.

What about that do you NOT get?

That's the same mentality that Pioli used for Jackson.

It's only the mentality Pioli used for Jackson if you ignore/discount the reports that Pioli tried to trade down, specifically the story about trying to get Detroit's pick at #20. According to the details of that scenario, Pioli was supposedly willing to take a huge loss in value to get out of the 3rd pick.

Not only doesn't that fit the mentality of "If he's your guy, you get him", Jackson would have been long gone by #20. They wouldn't have gotten him at all.

Jackson was clearly Pioli's guy if they were stuck at #3 and couldn't move back. But that doesn't mean Pioli wanted him no matter what.

BigRock · 05-16-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

I thought Ryan was the right pick....anyone that was here knows I was all for him going up there.

And when they moved up for Baker they put value on the LT position he was the best one left. But still it was a move to the early 20's.

I just don't see how these situations are the same.

They're almost exactly the same in terms of the reactions.

People might not have used the word "reach" to describe the Falcons taking Ryan last year, but far more people (particularly Falcons fans) thought taking Dorsey was the better move. Then you throw in Baker, who they surrendered a pantload to move up for, and there was a whole lot of doubt surrounding those first few picks.

For Judge to mention Pioli and Dimitroff in the same breath, and then cricitize Pioli over the draft, displays a staggering lack of insight on events that only occured a year ago. Dimitroff's moves (passing on Dorsey, giving up a lot for Baker) were questioned far more than Pioli reaching on Jackson.

**DaneMcCloud** · 05-16-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRock

It's only the mentality Pioli used for Jackson if you ignore/discount the reports that Pioli tried to trade down, specifically the story about trying to get Detroit's pick at #20. According to the details of that scenario, Pioli was supposedly willing to take a huge loss in value to get out of the 3rd pick.

No where have I seen a legitmate football writer detail the Chiefs draft day and their effort to move back. If you can link us to that, please do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRock

Not only doesn't that fit the mentality of "If he's your guy, you get him", Jackson would have been long gone by #20. They wouldn't have gotten him at all.

Pure conjecture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRock

Jackson was clearly Pioli's guy if they were stuck at #3 and couldn't move back. But that doesn't mean Pioli wanted him no matter what.

Conjecture.

On draft day, Pioli and Haley said they got "their guy". Most people had Jackson at between 17-20. He was "their guy" and there's no way to argue that he wasn't.

milkman · 05-16-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISmaqe

You've never made any bones about it, and why should you? For most people, it isn't a big deal. For some it is.

But for guys like milk to act like it's surprising is, well, surprising. When you tell somebody what they said is dumb, 9 times out of 10 they're going to respond as if they were attacked.

I didn't act surprised.

I merely pointed out the real reason the namecalling and aggressive posting escalated over the last several months.

**DaneMcCloud** · 05-16-2009, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChiefDave

This is one giant Mecca, Hamas, and Dane Bukake thread...

You're just jealous

Just Passin' By · 05-16-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

No where have I seen a legitmate football writer detail the Chiefs draft day and their effort to move back. If you can link us to that, please do.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...to-trade-down/

http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/787

**DaneMcCloud** · 05-16-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...to-trade-down/

http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/787

Wes Bunting is a 22 year-old kid in Pennsylvania that's pretty much full of completely shit.

Adam Teicher? Teicher doesn't know a football from a baseball.

If Peter King (who was in KC at Arrowhead during the draft) said it, I'd believe it.

From these two knuckleheads? No way.

orange · 05-16-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

No where have I seen a legitmate football writer detail the Chiefs draft day and their effort to move back. If you can link us to that, please do.

Detroit rejects KC's offer
The Chiefs are apparently trying hard to move down from the number three spot. I'm hearing they offered the Lions that pick plus a fourth-round choice in return for Detroit's other first-rounder (#20) and Detroit's second-rounder (#33).

The Lions rejected the offer. Too bad for the Chiefs. Since they don't have a second-round pick, this stands a chance of being a one-player draft for the Chiefs. And they need more than one player from this draft.

http://chiefsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/787

Of course, you will now say that Adam Teicher is not a "legitimate football writer" because his access to Chiefs' coaches, scouts, players, and executives cannot equal your all-seeing perch on the internet.

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[edit] I call REPOST on myself. Didn't realize that tab had sat open so long. Nonetheless, my points are still valid.

05-14-2009, 12:01 PM
DaneMcCloud Supporter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hollywood, CA Casino cash: $10053648	Clark Judge: Rating smartest, boldest, scariest offseason moves Rating smartest, boldest, scariest offseason moves May 13, 2009 By Clark Judge CBSSports.com Senior Writer http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11743195 Five boldest moves Kansas City hiring Scott Pioli Some people automatically put this one in the win column. Not me. Not after Charlie Weis fizzled at Notre Dame and Romeo Crennel bombed out in Cleveland. OK, so they were former New England coaches, and Pioli was a decorated GM. They still fall from the same tree. The question I have is this: How much was Pioli responsible for what happened in New England? "I guess we're about to find out," said one NFC general manager. The good news is that Thomas Dimitroff had New England ties, too, and he circled the bases in his first turn as a GM in Atlanta. The bad news: Pioli's first draft with Kansas City: There are reaches everywhere. He also reversed the team's Get Young Now policy by adding 30-something discards like Bobby Engram, Zach Thomas, Monty Beisel and Mike Vrabel. You can do that when you're at or near the top, like New England. But this is a team that lost 23 of its last 25, for crying out loud. Five biggest gambles Kansas City acquiring Matt Cassel I know what he did with New England. But that was the Patriots, and tell me where you find Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Richard Seymour and Bill Belichick in the 816 area code. Cassel was surrounded by a raft of talent on the field and on the sidelines in New England, and I'm still looking for that support group here. So he produced a couple of 400-yard passing games and won 10 of 15 starts. That was nice. But I want to see him reproduce it here. OK, I know what you're thinking: What do the Chiefs have to lose -- especially when all they surrendered for Cassel and Vrabel was a second-round draft pick? Try this: They're paying Cassel $14.65 million in guaranteed salary. If he turns out to be the next Scott Mitchell I know some bean counters in red suits who will demand explanations.
Posts: 88,960

05-16-2009, 03:47 PM	#363
SenselessChiefsFan MVP Join Date: Nov 2008 Casino cash: $10005450	He compares Pioli to Dimitroff, but then said the Chiefs had reaches 'everywhere'. Yeah, reaches everywhere, like the Falcons who 'reached' for Matt Ryan, and who reached for Sam Baker. They got abused for trading up to take Sam Baker, and for NOT taking Glen Dorsey. I think that worked out pretty well. I am not saying that the Chiefs draft will be as good as the Falcons, but the Falcons 'reached' in the mind of the 'experts'.... much like the Patriots have 'reached' over the years. Odd that one of the things that are similar between the Chiefs drafts this year and the Falcons last draft and most of the New England drafts.... judge raised as a 'difference'.
Posts: 5,540

05-16-2009, 04:01 PM	#364
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-762950	I thought Ryan was the right pick....anyone that was here knows I was all for him going up there. And when they moved up for Baker they put value on the LT position he was the best one left. But still it was a move to the early 20's. I just don't see how these situations are the same.
Posts: 115,406

05-16-2009, 04:27 PM	#367
BigMeatballDave GBM 8-12-15 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Dayton, Oh. Casino cash: $10052154	This is one giant Mecca, Hamas, and Dane Bukake thread...
Posts: 59,997