Football To the Herm haters. - Page 18

kcbubb · 07-29-2009, 11:37 AM

I'm tired of all the blame going to Herm. Yes, Herm had his share of blunders but the amount of hate that he gets is ridiculous. The biggest mistake that Herm made was underestimating the impact of Jared Allen. And I did too at the time. In 2007, the Chiefs almost had a top 10 defense despite their terrible offense. We know what happened in 2008. But we are quick to forget the defense of 2007. I'm not saying the Herm was a great coach, but he is not as bad as some here believe.

Just to irritate you, lets take a look at what might have been if Herm had stuck around.

-First the acquisition of Cassell never happens. Herm sticks with Thigpen and Gailey runs the system that worked well in the latter half of the season.

-The switch to the 3-4 never happens and the Chiefs continue to run a 4-3 defense.

-Most likely, no notable free agents are picked up.

-Tony Gonzalez remains with the Chiefs.

-The draft rolls around and Herm takes the safe route as usual and picks the following players:

1. Aaron Curry
2. Everette Brown (Herm likes this pick bc of the desperate need for a pass rusher to replace Jared Allen who was lost in 07 and the success of another small DE Dwight Freeney with the Colts where his role model Tony Dungy coached.)
3. Antione Caldwell (Mal Moore leadership award winner is drafted here) Herm kinda player. And can play all line positions but primarily C or G.
4. Louis Murphy (Herm picks a wide out for the needed depth and Murphy provide some speed.)
5. Jasper Brinkley (Tough middle linebacker probably starts.)
6. Andrew Gardner (RT tackle pushes or replaces McIntosh)
7. Captain Munnerlyn (CB and returner)
7. Ricky Jean-Francois (depth at DT)
7. Ryan Succop K

And to top it off. After speaking with Tony Dungy about Michael Vick, who has been mentoring Vick, Herm trusts Dungy and decides to give Vick a shot at backing up Tyler Thigpen.

Would all of this happened... probably not, but it is interesting to think about what might have been if Herm and Carl would have stayed. Again, I don't think Herm is great and I definitely don't think Carl was good, but I do wonder what might have happened. I do like the draft above much better than our current one, and I do like that we still would have Tony G.

Mecca · 08-01-2009, 11:04 AM

It's not the strategy that was flawed it's the way it was put in that was flawed...

Herms drafts were kind of shitty...the players he relied upon to be key players if you looked at them from a logical outsider point of view didn't make any sense to be put in those positions.

kstater · 08-01-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Dick Vermeil's winning pct in St. Louis was .458.

You can't use winning pct. as your basis for argument when two of those years were the result of a painful rebuilding process that is the fault of poor front office decisions made before you got there.

Herm has a CAREER winning percentage of .422. You can't pin that on "rebuilding". Vermiel has a career winning record. Oh, he has a couple super bowl trophies(one is actually real) as well dumbass.

Mecca · 08-01-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kstater

Herm has a CAREER winning percentage of .422. You can't pin that on "rebuilding". Vermiel has a career winning record. Oh, he has a couple super bowl trophies as well dumbass.

Uh he has 1, I don't know where you got a couple from.

kstater · 08-01-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Uh he has 1, I don't know where you got a couple from.

In my mind the 03 Chiefs won it all.

chiefzilla1501 · 08-01-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

It's not the strategy that was flawed it's the way it was put in that was flawed...

Herms drafts were kind of shitty...the players he relied upon to be key players if you looked at them from a logical outsider point of view didn't make any sense to be put in those positions.

I don't think "shitty" is the right word to use. I think this team has a really solid young base of players that they brought in through the draft and undrafted free agent market. Too bad most of them are geared for a 4-3. Keep in mind that building a roster isn't just about putting 22 outstanding starters on the field. It's often about bringing in quality depth at every position. It's a safe play, but Turk McBride will probably be more of a contributor in the NFL than over half of the second rounders. Even if he doesn't end up being a starter (granted, the move to a 3-4 might keep that from happening).

I'm very happy with the foundation of this team. Moving to a 3-4 takes us a step back, which is fine, but the youth movement brought in a lot of what I believe will be long-term solutions for the Chiefs.

Mecca · 08-01-2009, 11:29 AM

Herms death nail was drafting Brodie Croyle and calling him our franchise QB. Everyone knew he would get injured, I don't know how Herm just didn't see that coming.

chiefzilla1501 · 08-01-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Herms death nail was drafting Brodie Croyle and calling him our franchise QB. Everyone knew he would get injured, I don't know how Herm just didn't see that coming.

A horrible decision, but I don't think that should discount some other pretty good moves on the draft front.

Mecca · 08-01-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

A horrible decision, but I don't think that should discount some other pretty good moves on the draft front.

I despise the Hali, Pollard, Croyle draft so you'll have a hard time getting me to say anything nice about that one.

chiefzilla1501 · 08-01-2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

I despise the Hali, Pollard, Croyle draft so you'll have a hard time getting me to say anything nice about that one.

No, it wasn't a good draft. But his personnel strategy as a whole was solid. Decent draft in 2007 and outstanding 2008. He gave undrafted guys like Leggett, Cox, and Barth legitimate shots at winning starting jobs. And I think a lot needs to be said for how swiftly he was willing to admit he was wrong on personnel decisions. He was wrong on Sams and Novak, but unlike Vermeil, he was swift to correct that mistake. Apart from Croyle starting, I can't think of too many situations in 2008 where I thought the wrong guy was getting PT while a better player rode the pine.

I am pretty convinced that one of the reasons Pioli was enthusiastic about taking over the Chiefs is that he knew he had a pretty good foundation on the way to being built. I think given that we started from Ground Zero in 2008, we aren't in that bad of shape.

Mecca · 08-01-2009, 11:54 AM

Other than switching to 3-4 makes most of the front 7 defensive personnel useless.

chiefzilla1501 · 08-01-2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Other than switching to 3-4 makes most of the front 7 defensive personnel useless.

I wouldn't go that far. I think Tank and Dorsey had potential to be a solid interior. And I thought Demorrio Williams and Derrick Johnson had potential to be solid on the outside, if only we had a real LBs coach. With our DEs, again, Hali is a serviceable LDE if you line him up opposite a real good pass rusher. And Turk McBride is actually a really good run-stopper--before he went down with injury, he racked up 50 tackles, which is solid for a DE. I think we were one real good MLB away and one real good DE away from having a solid 4-3 defense. Talent-wise, that is.

Again, as you've heard me say, I'm glad we're moving to a 3-4 because I think it's a better defense if built right. But I think the foundation was there for a fairly defense which was built mostly off of scraps.

**The Bad Guy** · 08-01-2009, 12:05 PM

Where is this base of really good young players? They have one really good corner, one really good WR, one really good LT and that's it.

Where is the rest of this base you speak of?

A few posts back, you actually praised the Turk McBride pick. You have the talent evaluation skills of Herm obviously.

Mecca · 08-01-2009, 12:05 PM

Don't worry Guardian will show up and tell us we aren't playing 3-4 even though I watched Haley and Pioli both say we are.

chiefzilla1501 · 08-01-2009, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

Where is this base of really good young players? They have one really good corner, one really good WR, one really good LT and that's it.

Where is the rest of this base you speak of?

A few posts back, you actually praised the Turk McBride pick. You have the talent evaluation skills of Herm obviously.

Albert, Bowe, Cox and Flowers are very good players. Leggett, Page, and Dorsey have potential to be very good. Carr and Tank have upside. Turk and Hali are terrific in situational rotational roles, an underrated quality for a D-lineman. Those guys in addition to Jamaal Charles are quality depth. I personally think Pollard is becoming a better player, but if that's not your cup of tea, then Morgan has pretty good upside. And then you have guys like Rudi Niswanger, Tyler Thigpen, and Herb Taylor, who aren't fit to be starters, but they're very solid guys to have as backups. Keep in mind, again, that these are players only 1-2 years into their development. Most players don't click until about the 3rd year. That is not a bad foundation to be built in 3 years of drafts where the team spent almost nothing in free agency.

Add in that you have guys like Derrick Johnson and Demorrio Williams, who are solid guys at LB, who still have a lot of gas in their tank.

This team has a much better young foundation than they get credit for. Some of that was dismantled only because of a complete shift in defensive philosophy.

**The Bad Guy** · 08-01-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Albert, Bowe, Cox and Flowers are very good players. Leggett, Page, and Dorsey have potential to be very good. Carr and Tank have upside. Turk and Hali are terrific in situational rotational roles, an underrated quality for a D-lineman. Those guys in addition to Jamaal Charles are quality depth. I personally think Pollard is becoming a better player, but if that's not your cup of tea, then Morgan has pretty good upside. And then you have guys like Rudi Niswanger, Tyler Thigpen, and Herb Taylor, who aren't fit to be starters, but they're very solid guys to have as backups. Keep in mind, again, that these are players only 1-2 years into their development. Most players don't click until about the 3rd year. That is not a bad foundation to be built in 3 years of drafts where the team spent almost nothing in free agency.

Add in that you have guys like Derrick Johnson and Demorrio Williams, who are solid guys at LB, who still have a lot of gas in their tank.

This team has a much better young foundation than they get credit for. Some of that was dismantled only because of a complete shift in defensive philosophy.

God you grade on a curve.

DeMorrio Williams is not a solid player. He's not even close. He's a fringe player at best.

Jarrad Page can't tackle. Leggett had about 3 good games, and Dorsey doesn't even have a position anymore.

Mike Cox a very good player? Since when? You like to throw around the very good label like it's a common thing.

My god. I'm done arguing with you.

You want to know who has a core of really good young players? Look at the Chargers, Falcons, Cardinals.

In terms of foundation, the Chiefs probably have one of the worst in the NFL.

07-29-2009, 11:37 AM
kcbubb Veteran Join Date: Nov 2008 Casino cash: $5156719	To the Herm haters. I'm tired of all the blame going to Herm. Yes, Herm had his share of blunders but the amount of hate that he gets is ridiculous. The biggest mistake that Herm made was underestimating the impact of Jared Allen. And I did too at the time. In 2007, the Chiefs almost had a top 10 defense despite their terrible offense. We know what happened in 2008. But we are quick to forget the defense of 2007. I'm not saying the Herm was a great coach, but he is not as bad as some here believe. Just to irritate you, lets take a look at what might have been if Herm had stuck around. -First the acquisition of Cassell never happens. Herm sticks with Thigpen and Gailey runs the system that worked well in the latter half of the season. -The switch to the 3-4 never happens and the Chiefs continue to run a 4-3 defense. -Most likely, no notable free agents are picked up. -Tony Gonzalez remains with the Chiefs. -The draft rolls around and Herm takes the safe route as usual and picks the following players: 1. Aaron Curry 2. Everette Brown (Herm likes this pick bc of the desperate need for a pass rusher to replace Jared Allen who was lost in 07 and the success of another small DE Dwight Freeney with the Colts where his role model Tony Dungy coached.) 3. Antione Caldwell (Mal Moore leadership award winner is drafted here) Herm kinda player. And can play all line positions but primarily C or G. 4. Louis Murphy (Herm picks a wide out for the needed depth and Murphy provide some speed.) 5. Jasper Brinkley (Tough middle linebacker probably starts.) 6. Andrew Gardner (RT tackle pushes or replaces McIntosh) 7. Captain Munnerlyn (CB and returner) 7. Ricky Jean-Francois (depth at DT) 7. Ryan Succop K And to top it off. After speaking with Tony Dungy about Michael Vick, who has been mentoring Vick, Herm trusts Dungy and decides to give Vick a shot at backing up Tyler Thigpen. Would all of this happened... probably not, but it is interesting to think about what might have been if Herm and Carl would have stayed. Again, I don't think Herm is great and I definitely don't think Carl was good, but I do wonder what might have happened. I do like the draft above much better than our current one, and I do like that we still would have Tony G.
Posts: 2,549

08-01-2009, 11:04 AM	#256
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-502950	It's not the strategy that was flawed it's the way it was put in that was flawed... Herms drafts were kind of shitty...the players he relied upon to be key players if you looked at them from a logical outsider point of view didn't make any sense to be put in those positions.
Posts: 115,252

08-01-2009, 11:29 AM	#261
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-502950	Herms death nail was drafting Brodie Croyle and calling him our franchise QB. Everyone knew he would get injured, I don't know how Herm just didn't see that coming.
Posts: 115,252

08-01-2009, 11:54 AM	#265
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-502950	Other than switching to 3-4 makes most of the front 7 defensive personnel useless.
Posts: 115,252

08-01-2009, 12:05 PM	#267
The Bad Guy Scott Pioli Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: The Copacobana Casino cash: $9283645	Where is this base of really good young players? They have one really good corner, one really good WR, one really good LT and that's it. Where is the rest of this base you speak of? A few posts back, you actually praised the Turk McBride pick. You have the talent evaluation skills of Herm obviously. __________________
Posts: 23,216

08-01-2009, 12:05 PM	#268
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-502950	Don't worry Guardian will show up and tell us we aren't playing 3-4 even though I watched Haley and Pioli both say we are.
Posts: 115,252