Chiefs A case for Tyler Thigpen - Page 12

MMXcalibur · 08-27-2009, 12:30 PM

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/08/27/a-ca...tyler-thigpen/

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Thursday, August 27 2009
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Jason La Canfora
A case for Tyler Thigpen
Posted: August 27th, 2009 | Jason La Canfora | Tags: Baltimore Ravens, Ben Roethlisberger, Brodie Croyle, Buffalo Bills, Chicago Bears, Green Bay Packers, Jacksonville Jaguars, Joe Flacco, Kansas City Chiefs, Matt Cassel, Matt Ryan, New England Patriots, New Orleans Saints, trades, Tyler Thigpen, Wildcat

I have a question for you guys: Name a first-year starting quarterback who accounted for more touchdowns than Super Bowl-winning veteran Ben Roethlisberger or standout rookies Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan last season? Here’s another one: Of all the players who ran the ball at least 50 times last season, who led the NFL in yards per carry?

OK, so the title of this blog makes the answer pretty much a dead giveaway. I think we all know who I’m talking about here (for the record, he averaged 6.2 yards per carry on 62 rushes). But I’m going to say it (read: type it): I like Tyler Thigpen. I’m not afraid to admit it, and I know some savvy NFL scouts/executives who value him, too.

I like Thigpen’s guts and competitiveness. I love his athleticism. I think he’s a playmaker who’s still quite raw (a 25-year-old who became a starter for a lame-duck staff last season, out of Coastal Carolina of all places) and has some warts but a ton of upside. He’s a kid who flashed some real talent, yet was surrounded by an Amy Winehouse-thin roster in Kansas City last season (having no defense and no running game did him no favors).

And it’s clear that the new Chiefs regime prefers Matt Cassel and Brodie Croyle to him — because Thigpen is being shopped — but if I’m running the average NFL team (which means I probably have 1.5 capable QBs on my roster, and, yeah I’m going to use a lot of parenthesis in this post), I’m making a play for this kid, even if it costs me more than a fifth-round draft pick (the current asking price).

So, let’s go back to the beginning here, a very good place to start.

Thigpen was thrust into duty after the Chiefs’ other quarterbacks went down with season-ending injuries. He ended up accounting for 22 touchdowns (18 passing, three rushing and one receiving) in just 11 starts for a 2-14 team that had some deep flaws. Roethlisberger, a $100 million QB, won a Super Bowl with help from the game’s best defense and accounted for 19 TDs (17 passing, two rushing) in 16 starts.

So Thigpen, as a second-year pro with no prior experience and a last-place roster around him, threw for 2,608 yards and 18 TDs with 12 interceptions in the first 11 starts of his career. And Roethlisberger, already fully polished and with a Super Bowl-quality roster around him, threw for 3,301 yards and 17 TDs with 15 interceptions in 16 games. Hmm, interesting. And Roethlisberger had as many turnovers as Thigpen did scores.

OK. In no way am I trying to say Thigpen is remotely the QB and playmaker than Big Ben is (nor could anyone expect him to be), but tell me this kid might not be worth a shot at being better than most teams’ current backup passer. (Personally, I think he’s a heck of a lot better than Croyle, for one, but I’m obviously not running any NFL teams). Hang with me here.

Ryan, the third overall pick in the 2008 draft, won the NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year award, had the league’s best running game and a stout Falcons defense behind him, and he accounted for 17 total TDs in 16 starts. Flacco also was a first-round pick in 2008, started 16 games for a Ravens team with the league’s second-best defense and a robust running attack, and he accounted for 16 total TDs.

Let’s take it a little deeper. Well, Jason, you dope, the Chiefs stunk and Thigpen just put up a bunch of meaningless numbers while chasing teams in the second half of games, right?

Not so fast. The Chiefs either led entering the fourth quarter, led in the fourth quarter or were tied entering the fourth quarter in seven of Thigpen’s final 10 games. If anything, questionable play-calling, a horrid running game and an atrocious defense conspired against the young QB.

Overall, could Thigpen be better in the fourth quarter? Sure, he had a 62.0 rating and completed just 50 percent of his passes (four fourth-quarter TDs to four fourth-quarter interceptions isn’t that bad, though). This was a kid from a small school thrust into emergency starts with little coaching, and as we know, inexperienced passers tend to have issues late in games. Thigpen also was sacked 11 times on just 123 fourth-quarter pass attempts, so a suspect offensive line and lack of any sort of competent defense didn’t make things any easier on him.

Well, what about Thigpen completing just 55 percent of his passes and throwing 12 interceptions in just 14 games? Neither is ideal, no doubt. But let’s look at his offensive weapons. Dwayne Bowe and Devard Darling were his starting receivers. It wasn’t exactly the sure-hands crew. Besides having perennial Pro Bowl TE Tony Gonzalez, this kid was on his own.

As I said, Thigpen is raw and has some flaws, so coach him up (he was the first quarterback in Coastal Carolina history for goodness sake, with the program starting in 2003) and help him with film study and fundamentals. There is plenty to work with there.

This kid is incredibly fast — on his runs, he was almost never tackled by someone in the front seven. You can’t tell me he’s not one of the 64 best QBs out there, and given his skills and speed, he definitely could be someone who could help in the Wildcat. At 6-foot-1 and 224 pounds, Thigpen can take a hit.

As for the interceptions, that’s pretty common with young QBs. And the first came in a mop-up role in his first appearance of 2008, and three more came in his first NFL start, against the eventual NFC South champion Falcons, when you’d expect him to be nervous.

In the final 10 games, all starts, Thigpen threw 16 touchdown passes to eight interceptions. Not too shabby. And that’s far beyond anything the first-round bonus babies (JaMarcus Russell and Brady Quinn) from Thigpen’s draft year (2007) have accomplished.

Well, sure, those are decent numbers, but come on, the dude was in a shotgun most of the time and not a traditional offense?

Yep, the Chiefs, in desperation, got a bit gimmicky last season and spread things out. But a lot of teams are going more that route, and you guys tell me that Tom Brady (and last year, Cassel) and Flacco and Roethlisberger aren’t back there quite a bit, too.

Wow, I never thought I’d write this much about Tyler Thigpen, but, alas, it has happened. But how can you not like the kid? Never invited to the combine, seventh-round pick by the Vikings, claimed off waivers by the Chiefs in September 2007, tore his medial collateral ligament that rookie season and then ended up starting 11 games the next year when no one expected it, and, best as I can tell, did some pretty nice stuff.

And now, someone, if they’re smart, will meet the Chiefs’ price and trade for Thigpen. Sure, a third- or fourth-round pick is considerable, but when you look at what the kid has done, how valuable his position is and how few quality alternatives exist (let alone talented 25-year-olds), to me, a fourth-round pick is surely worth the shot.

The Jaguars have expressed the most interest to this point, and that’s one of several teams with a significant need for a backup QB. The Bills, Bears, Packers and Saints also have been closely monitoring the QB market. And people I talk to around the league don’t discount the Patriots making a move for a QB, too — particularly one who could provide a Wildcat element. The Ravens seriously considered trading for Thigpen before ultimately opting to sign Cleo Lemon a little while back, league sources said.

Some team will come away with a solid prospect in Thigpen, and frankly, I’m not quite sure why the Chiefs didn’t give him more of a look before locking in on Cassel.

Thigpen overload lately.

Just Passin' By · 08-27-2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I'm on my phone, so that isn't possible at the moment.

However, I will tell you that there was a thread with a poll discussing it after the trade. Matter of fact, I think I started it and the question was "is Cassel capable of putting a team on his back and winning a championship" referencing the idea of a franchise QB.

But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

**OnTheWarpath15** · 08-27-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

I'll type out a full response when I get home in an hour or so.

JD10367 · 08-27-2009, 06:51 PM

I've lost track. What was being argued here? Cassel vs. Thigpen, or Cassel being a franchise QB, or Cassel being half as good as Brady? (Which isn't exactly a news flash. But, then again, right NOW Cassel might be half as good. Who knows how it'll develop.)

The unknown seems to be how "for real" Cassel is and, to an extent, how "for real" Thigpen is. People can talk about how well Thigpen might've done in Cassel's place on New England last year, or how poorly Cassel would've done in Thigpen's place in KC, but unfortunately we don't have the gateway to the alternate universe to find those things out.

So, we have to go by what we know.

There are varying degrees of QB. On the bottom level you have the guys who are inconsistent, who throw a frozen rope on one play and an errant pass on another, or make a brilliant decision on one play and a boneheaded one on another. I'm looking at Byron Leftwich right now for Tampa, and he fits that bill.

The better a QB's decision-making and accuracy, the better the QB. Take Drew Bledsoe, for example. He could be very accurate and had a cannon, but his decision-making often wasn't the best, especially in later years. He'd lock on to his primary receiver and get tunnel vision, trying to force a pass into double-coverage instead of taking the more open pass to another guy. Or he'd take a bad sack from lack of pocket awareness, or heave the ball out of bounds too quickly.

The better a QB, the more they can make up for. A Tom Brady or a Peyton Manning on a bad team might elevate them; a Damon Huard might not. Conversely, an excellent team might make a decent QB look better than he would on a crap team. Same works in reverse (e.g. Brady making average receivers look good).

What it boils down to is this: what kind of consistency do you see from a QB? Are his passes more often than not accurate? Is his decision-making more often than not pretty good? Does he come through in clutch situations, or choke as the pressure mounts? By those criteria, from what I've seen of Cassel, he's definitely on the proper end of the spectrum. Thigpen? Maybe not so much, judging from his lack of accuracy and his declining QB rating at the end of games.

Thus, I think Cassel definitely has the potential to be a very solid starting QB. The kind of guy who can take a team places. (Hell, if guys like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer can get SB rings, I think Cassel's good enough.) Sort of like a Chad Pennington. Thigpen? He might succeed as a starter, but I get the feeling he'd need more help around him than Cassel, and might be better suited to the Billy Volek role of a backup who can win you some games for a stretch if your starter is out.

A franchise QB, to me, is a guy who can singlehandedly keep his team in the game, always make his team a threat, a QB who is the undisputed leader of his team and is going to be there for a long time. Those are very few and far-between. Brady and Manning in this era, Marino and Aikman and Favre and Montana and Jim Kelly in earlier years, etc.,.

Brady and Manning > Cassel > Thigpen and Croyle (at least in their current versions).

Franchise QBs > guy who's got the potential to be a solid starter > guys who are probably better suited as backups.

Guys who can win games singlehandedly > guys who can make some great plays to help win games and elevate some players > guys who probably can't win games on their own or overcome a lack of talent around them.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 08-27-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

But you keep conflating your arguments. There are only 2 franchise QBs in the NFL: Brady and Manning. Some people would argue that Roethlisberger belongs on the list, but that still only makes 3 total.

As far as putting teams on the back, I wouldn't put Manning among that group, and he's the second best QB in the NFL.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have won Super Bowls. Surely you're not claiming that Cassel can't become another Dilfer/Johnson, right?

Working backwards:

The odds aren't in his favor.

Second, I underestimated your ability to take past posts of mine and apply them to this conversation.

I would have worded my earlier statement better by saying that both Manning's, and Roethlisberger have PROVEN they deserve the franchise QB status. (I'm leaving Brady out of the conversation based on the fact that he was a needle in a haystack - let's talk about guys that were drafted or signed with the intention of being a franchise QB)

So, that leaves the following - guys that I consider franchise QB's based on their draft status, physical tools and intangibles - guys that were drafted with the expectation of being "the guy" for 10+ years and leading their team to a championship or more.

Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

They just haven't proven it yet, but have many years to do so. They are all still young.

NcNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

Other than that, Quinn was the only other guy drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB, and the jury is still out - though I think he'll be solid, but not capable of putting a tema on his back and winning a SB.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the Cassel situation and say he was just brought in to be "a guy". This was the guy they wanted, and they passed up others to do so - not to mention paid him what they would have paid a franchise QB in the draft.

The rest of the guys I listed can stay as already described - none of them were drafted or signed thinking they would be a franchise QB, IMO.

sedated · 08-27-2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

McNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?

your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.

Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer.

**Bane** · 08-27-2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedated

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?

your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.

Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer.

And he did it with no stand out receivers.Yeah he sucks.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 08-27-2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedated

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?

your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.

Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer.

Yeah, his defense handed him two rings.

I guess you missed the part where he accounted for all 74 yards on the final drive to win the ****ing game.

THAT'S what franchise QB's do.

And NcNabb has choked in almost every big game he's had. Being clutch in the biggest games is pretty ****ing important, wouldn't you say?

If you want to create a category for "franchise QB's that shit the bed when it matters most", then go right ahead.

RippedmyFlesh · 08-27-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedated

wtf? he's pretty much done nothing but win, been to 5 NFC championship games, 5 pro bowls, holds numerous franchise passing records, and has been the face of his franchise for a decade. not a franchise QB? wtf?

your criteria for franchise QB is a little weird. essentially, they have to be a high draft pick and win a super bowl.

Roethlisberger's stats are average at best, but since he was drafted in the first round and his defense handed him 2 super bowls, he must be a HOFer.

agree

Mcnabb turned out to be by far the best in his class.
Don't understand the hate for mcnabb.

Just Passin' By · 08-27-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Working backwards:

The odds aren't in his favor.

Second, I underestimated your ability to take past posts of mine and apply them to this conversation.

I would have worded my earlier statement better by saying that both Manning's, and Roethlisberger have PROVEN they deserve the franchise QB status. (I'm leaving Brady out of the conversation based on the fact that he was a needle in a haystack - let's talk about guys that were drafted or signed with the intention of being a franchise QB)

I don't agree on Ben, but let's concede it to give him a spot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

So, that leaves the following - guys that I consider franchise QB's based on their draft status, physical tools and intangibles - guys that were drafted with the expectation of being "the guy" for 10+ years and leading their team to a championship or more.

Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Rodgers, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez.

They just haven't proven it yet, but have many years to do so. They are all still young.

This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

NcNabb was drafted to be a franchise QB, but as we've seen, can't win the big game. That drops him out of the conversation in my book.

McNabb's got a better playoff record than Manning and has brought his team to the Super Bowl, and to the NFCCG multiple times. He's clearly won big games. Your assertion here makes no sense, in my opinion. The only year Manning won the Super Bowl, he was getting crushed by the Patriots until they turned into a M*A*S*H unit, and he was then able to take advantage of that, along with lousy officiating, and got to face the Bears in the Super Bowl. Hell, he was being talked of as being the greatest choker in history before he got that win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Other than that, Quinn was the only other guy drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB, and the jury is still out - though I think he'll be solid, but not capable of putting a tema on his back and winning a SB.

All QBs are drafted with the intention of getting a franchise QB. Quinn fell because so many teams doubted he'd ever become one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the Cassel situation and say he was just brought in to be "a guy". This was the guy they wanted, and they passed up others to do so - not to mention paid him what they would have paid a franchise QB in the draft.

The rest of the guys I listed can stay as already described - none of them were drafted or signed thinking they would be a franchise QB, IMO.

There's a difference between "a guy" and "a true franchise player", but there are also other layers of quarterbacks, just as you yourself have delineated. Again, nobody that I've seen expects Cassel to become Brady or Manning. Then again, nobody with a brain will expect that of any quarterback, given that they are 2 of the best to ever play the game (for Manning, this is true at least during the regular season, if not in the playoffs).

**OnTheWarpath15** · 08-27-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RippedmyFlesh

agree

Mcnabb turned out to be by far the best in his class.
Don't understand the hate for mcnabb.

Don't hate him, he just didn't live up to the #2 overall selection, IMO. Especially when he had MULTIPLE chances, and failed each time.

People say that Roethlisberger was handed rings by his defense, what the **** happened in Philly then?

And being the best in a class of Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper, Cade McNown, Shawn King,Brock Huard, Joe Germaine, Aaron Brooks, Kevin Daft, Michael Bishop, Chris Greisen and Scott Covington isn't exactly high praise...

sedated · 08-27-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Yeah, his defense handed him two rings.

I guess you missed the part where he accounted for all 74 yards on the final drive to win the ****ing game.

THAT'S what franchise QB's do.

And NcNabb has choked in almost every big game he's had. Being clutch in the biggest games is pretty ****ing important, wouldn't you say?

If you want to create a category for "franchise QB's that shit the bed when it matters most", then go right ahead.

I saw that drive, but I also saw all the other games Roth played where he didn't do shit except hand the ball off. He has played his entire career with a great front office, great receivers, great running game, and great defense.

As for McNabb, all playoff games are "big games" and he has won plenty of them. Without a runninng game or receivers.

But I guess all that is pretty easy to forget when you pay too much attention to ESPN.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 08-27-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

That's the second time you've apparently missed me saying BOTH MANNING'S.

**DeezNutz** · 08-27-2009, 08:10 PM

CP, where Roethlisberger is average.

sedated · 08-27-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

This makes no sense, particularly when you include Flacco. Eli isn't on your list here even though he's won a Super Bowl, but a #18 pick that some thought would go in the second round is?

in his defense, he said "Manning's".

It was intended to be pural, but ended up possessive, so I can see the confusion.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 08-27-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedated

I saw that drive, but I also saw all the other games Roth played where he didn't do shit except hand the ball off. He has played his entire career with a great front office, great receivers, great running game, and great defense.

As for McNabb, all playoff games are "big games" and he has won plenty of them. Without a runninng game or receivers.

But I guess all that is pretty easy to forget when you pay too much attention to ESPN.

Name all the QB's in league history to win multiple Super Bowls.

Yeah, it's just as easy as you claim, numbnuts.

08-27-2009, 06:51 PM	#168
JD10367 Cheaterlover* Join Date: May 2009 Location: RI Casino cash: $10010716	I've lost track. What was being argued here? Cassel vs. Thigpen, or Cassel being a franchise QB, or Cassel being half as good as Brady? (Which isn't exactly a news flash. But, then again, right NOW Cassel might be half as good. Who knows how it'll develop.) The unknown seems to be how "for real" Cassel is and, to an extent, how "for real" Thigpen is. People can talk about how well Thigpen might've done in Cassel's place on New England last year, or how poorly Cassel would've done in Thigpen's place in KC, but unfortunately we don't have the gateway to the alternate universe to find those things out. So, we have to go by what we know. There are varying degrees of QB. On the bottom level you have the guys who are inconsistent, who throw a frozen rope on one play and an errant pass on another, or make a brilliant decision on one play and a boneheaded one on another. I'm looking at Byron Leftwich right now for Tampa, and he fits that bill. The better a QB's decision-making and accuracy, the better the QB. Take Drew Bledsoe, for example. He could be very accurate and had a cannon, but his decision-making often wasn't the best, especially in later years. He'd lock on to his primary receiver and get tunnel vision, trying to force a pass into double-coverage instead of taking the more open pass to another guy. Or he'd take a bad sack from lack of pocket awareness, or heave the ball out of bounds too quickly. The better a QB, the more they can make up for. A Tom Brady or a Peyton Manning on a bad team might elevate them; a Damon Huard might not. Conversely, an excellent team might make a decent QB look better than he would on a crap team. Same works in reverse (e.g. Brady making average receivers look good). What it boils down to is this: what kind of consistency do you see from a QB? Are his passes more often than not accurate? Is his decision-making more often than not pretty good? Does he come through in clutch situations, or choke as the pressure mounts? By those criteria, from what I've seen of Cassel, he's definitely on the proper end of the spectrum. Thigpen? Maybe not so much, judging from his lack of accuracy and his declining QB rating at the end of games. Thus, I think Cassel definitely has the potential to be a very solid starting QB. The kind of guy who can take a team places. (Hell, if guys like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer can get SB rings, I think Cassel's good enough.) Sort of like a Chad Pennington. Thigpen? He might succeed as a starter, but I get the feeling he'd need more help around him than Cassel, and might be better suited to the Billy Volek role of a backup who can win you some games for a stretch if your starter is out. A franchise QB, to me, is a guy who can singlehandedly keep his team in the game, always make his team a threat, a QB who is the undisputed leader of his team and is going to be there for a long time. Those are very few and far-between. Brady and Manning in this era, Marino and Aikman and Favre and Montana and Jim Kelly in earlier years, etc.,. Brady and Manning > Cassel > Thigpen and Croyle (at least in their current versions). Franchise QBs > guy who's got the potential to be a solid starter > guys who are probably better suited as backups. Guys who can win games singlehandedly > guys who can make some great plays to help win games and elevate some players > guys who probably can't win games on their own or overcome a lack of talent around them.
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