Chiefs Why people are disappointed: Exhibit A - Talent Evaluation

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-14-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

Jackson may have been the BPA on their board. We have no way of knowing.

I think Brown would have been a great pickup.

I'll say what I've said probably 10,000 times in the last 9 years on this board, you can be disappointed with this year, I'm not sure who wouldn't be, but from within that red haze don't lose sight of the fact that this isn't the only year they have. It was always a multiple-year proposition, and positive or negative, what happened in 2009, offseason or inseason, isn't any kind of indictment on the future. Things may get better. Or they may not. But they do have time and many more opportunities left to fix the franchise.

I agree, Keg, and good post.

However, just because we all knew this was a multiple year proposition does not make it acceptable to completely waste one of those years.

We are literally no better off than we were this time last year.

You could argue that the team is worse.

So basically, we're starting over, yet again.

keg in kc · 12-14-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I agree, Keg, and good post.

However, just because we all knew this was a multiple year proposition does not make it acceptable to completely waste one of those years.

We are literally no better off than we were this time last year.

You could argue that the team is worse.

So basically, we're starting over, yet again.

I don't think this year was wasted. It was the dump year and the year to get a lot of tape on people for next offseason, several of them players who were let go late in the offseason or during the year. I think they wanted to take a hard look at a lot of young players both on the Chiefs as well as on the Cardinals and Patriots, players they were familiar with and (this is a guess) thought worth a look, and now they have a better idea of what kind of players they are. While there were a few free agents who I think would have made an impact over the long term, I don't think going whole-hog into free agency would have been the right move for this stage of the rebuild. As far as I recall they really only have two new contracts that have long-term ramifications on the squad (Cassel and Jackson) and they should have all kinds of freedom when it comes to spending, not just in 2010 but beyond that. The real issue will be whether the CBA is reworked and what kind of players they'll be able to look at. Like I've said, I think most of the people they brought in were stop-gap and the real moves come later. I think instead of trying to build on a rotten foundation, they decided to tear the whole house down and build new, with a few supports in place so they have enough numbers to actually play games (guys like Brown and Wade and Vrabel and Chambers, etc). And I've been fine with that since the start. The season's gone pretty much exactly the way I thought it would. I'm not a good loser, as they say, so I tend to get pissed as hell the day of a loss, but the sun always rises and so far I've been able to remember what's going on.

Doesn't mean I think they're going fix anything, or that I'm defending anybody, just that I think I have a vague idea of what's going on and I'm going to watch and see what happens. I think it's too early for panic.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-14-2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

I don't think this year was wasted. It was the dump year and the year to get a lot of tape on people for next offseason, several of them players who were let go late in the offseason or during the year. I think they wanted to take a hard look at a lot of young players both on the Chiefs as well as on the Cardinals and Patriots, players they were familiar with and (this is a guess) thought worth a look, and now they have a better idea of what kind of players they are. While there were a few free agents who I think would have made an impact over the long term, I don't think going whole-hog into free agency would have been the right move for this stage of the rebuild. As far as I recall they really only have two new contracts that have long-term ramifications on the squad (Cassel and Jackson) and they should have all kinds of freedom when it comes to spending, not just in 2010 but beyond that. The real issue will be whether the CBA is reworked and what kind of players they'll be able to look at. Like I've said, I think most of the people they brought in were stop-gap and the real moves come later. I think instead of trying to build on a rotten foundation, they decided to tear the whole house down and build new, with a few supports in place so they have enough numbers to actually play games (guys like Brown and Wade and Vrabel and Chambers, etc). And I've been fine with that since the start. The season's gone pretty much exactly the way I thought it would. I'm not a good loser, as they say, so I tend to get pissed as hell the day of a loss, but the sun always rises and so far I've been able to remember what's going on.

Doesn't mean I think they're going fix anything, or that I'm defending anybody, just that I think I have a vague idea of what's going on and I'm going to watch and see what happens. I think it's too early for panic.

Agree to disagree then I guess. I don't see these "supports" to the foundation you're talking about.

This was the year to begin building that foundation, and here we are 11 months later, and we're still looking at a muddy hole in the ground.

keg in kc · 12-14-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Agree to disagree then I guess. I don't see these "supports" to the foundation you're talking about.

I was talking about supports in temporary terms, not permanent solutions. Which is why I used the word supports.

Quote:

This was the year to begin building that foundation, and here we are 11 months later, and we're still looking at a muddy hole in the ground.

I don't think we'll be able to tell until 2011 whether Jackson is an actual foundation player or not, because of the nature of his position, but that's what he was brought in to be. Cassel was also brought in to be a foundation player, but they didn't put anything in place around him, so his impact was going to be limited by default. Which doesn't mean I think his play is fine or anything like that, but more on that later.

I don't think you can discount holdovers from Herm just because they're holdovers from Herm. I think Dorsey has shown he can play in this system, although hurting his knee again (if that's what happened yesterday) is troubling. Hali has been fine. Both Flowers and Carr should be starters for a long time. Guys like Gilberry and Studebaker have shown some promise. Page will hopefully come back from IR. All young players with the potential to contribute for years.

I think the defense is not far off from making huge strides (talking in personnel terms). A safety and a couple of linebackers and I could see them moving up 15 or 20 spots in 2010. Although I'm not sure what kind of job Pendergast can do. Time will tell I guess.

The offense is probably going to take longer. They had less to start with, and offense generally always takes longer. The only untouchables right now in my mind are Charles and Bowe. I think Albert's going to be fine in the long term, but as far as I'm concerned the other four spots are going to have to be filled in the next two years, and sooner better than later. I think Pope has played well enough to stay (much to my surprise, honestly). But I think they need 2 receivers, a starter and a slot - I think right now, with Bowe out, they're starting a bunch of 4s. I don't know what they have in Cassel - although the last few weeks have been bad - until they have anybody around him. I've said all along that I don't think anybody could succeed behind center here with this roster, and I believe that as much now as I did in September. The question is whether he could succeed behind the reins of a talented offense, and right now I just don't know. I'm not going to say yes, but I'm also not going to say no. Just...I don't know.

Anyway, I think they have started building the core of the team. It's just hard to see it in the face of the way they play. I think the 2010 offseason will tell us a lot more than the 2009 did, in any case. The personnel department is now completely Pioli guys, there's been a shitton of roster turnover, they have tape on everybody, and I don't think there's any viable excuse for them not to show a great deal of improvement, both on the roster and on the field. They should be a more competitive team, fall somewhere into the league average range of 6-10 to 10-6, and then in 2011 they should be fully in the division race.

Those have been my expectations since the hire was made, and that's what they continue to be, regardless of anything that's happened in 2009.

DaWolf · 12-14-2009, 02:15 PM

There are a few reasons I would give Pioli some more time:

1) Hunt didn't hire him to just come in and "fix" the existing team. He hired him to change the entire culture of the football side of the operations. Pioli said from the beginning that doing this would not happen overnight and that they may have to step back before moving forward. If Clark wanted to stay the course with the roster and culture in place, he should have promoted Kuharic and kept Herm around.

2) Pioli wasn't able to get his own personnel department and scouts set until after the draft, when contracts expired and new hires were available. Now this may not seem like a big deal or it may just be some excuse if you believe all personnel departments are created equally and it is just the top guy who makes all the calls, but I'll be curious to see if there is any difference this coming offseason.

3) Rookies usually can't be fully evaluated their first year. Some rooks look great and just fade after a few years, others bust out in the 2nd or 3rd year. I'm not going to sit here and say we had a great draft by any means, but I think you need to let the class mature a bit more before writing it off.

4) This is not new to Pioli, in New England they did a very similar thing in 2000, taking an 8-8 football team, getting rid of a bunch of guys and signing a bunch of scrubs, and going 5-11, and starting the next year off 1-3 before going on their run. Now they had a better core of veteran players in place to start with than we do, but I think the philosophy is to bring in guys who buy into the "system" and slowly start to build that roster. By year three, a lot of the guys starting or playing significant portions for us now should be valuable depth if the so called "process" works and better and better talent is brought in.

I agree that right now a lot of the moves look bad and we're not much better off than we were to start with. And if we don't have a significant talent influx this offseason, then something is amiss and you can go to the top there, because he's now had enough time not only to get his front office pieces in place, but he's had the time to get a firsthand look at the roster he has and who fits in and who doesn't.

Pioli may well be in over his head, and maybe he's not going to be able to get it done here. The biggest thing I have against him right now is not on the personnel front, but on the coaching hire front. Haley is bugging me more and more every week. I think the biggest reflection on a roster that isn't improving is the quality of the coaching. I don't care who you have playing, good coaches will always get their guys to improve as the year goes on. We're sinking. And we could arguably have three more wins with a better prepared football team. So if there are not some big changes on the staff this offseason, I don't think Pioli will have much of a chance even if he has an A+ draft this offseason...

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-15-2009, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaWolf

There are a few reasons I would give Pioli some more time:

2) Pioli wasn't able to get his own personnel department and scouts set until after the draft, when contracts expired and new hires were available.

BULLSHIT excuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaWolf

3) Rookies usually can't be fully evaluated their first year. Some rooks look great and just fade after a few years, others bust out in the 2nd or 3rd year. I'm not going to sit here and say we had a great draft by any means, but I think you need to let the class mature a bit more before writing it off.

BULLSHIT excuse. Are you telling me that we can't adequately judge Michael Oher, Percy Harvin, Knowshon Moreno, Michael Crabtree or Vontae Davis?

Tyson Jackson is just a GUY. He hasn't "flashed". Magee? Same thing. Washington? A Joke. O'Connell?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaWolf

4) This is not new to Pioli, in New England they did a very similar thing in 2000, taking an 8-8 football team, getting rid of a bunch of guys and signing a bunch of scrubs, and going 5-11, and starting the next year off 1-3 before going on their run.

More nonsense.

This isn't New England. There is no TOM BRADY on the roster. Todd Haley isn't Bill Belichick.

If Scott Pioli came to town thinking he could just follow the Patriots blueprint, without any improvisation or changes, he's a bigger ****ing idiot than I previously thought. I don't hold him in high regard, whatsoever at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaWolf

I agree that right now a lot of the moves look bad and we're not much better off than we were to start with. And if we don't have a significant talent influx this offseason, then something is amiss and you can go to the top there, because he's now had enough time not only to get his front office pieces in place, but he's had the time to get a firsthand look at the roster he has and who fits in and who doesn't.

I knew what was wrong with this team. In MY mock draft, I had Sanchez, Unger, Urbick, Louis Murphy, Louis Vasquez and more. How come I knew what the Chiefs needed but the Executive Of the Millennium didn't?

Oh, and there were several others around here that had pretty damn good mock drafts that seem to know more about the Chiefs than ****ing Scott Pioli.

You're making too many excuses for a job that to date, has been poorly executed from top to bottom.

aturnis · 12-15-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

I agree, Keg, and good post.

However, just because we all knew this was a multiple year proposition does not make it acceptable to completely waste one of those years.

We are literally no better off than we were this time last year.

You could argue that the team is worse.

So basically, we're starting over, yet again.

Alright Warpath,

I have to tell you to give it a rest. I do believe that EVERYONE knew that the approach for this season was to really sit back and evaluate. They inherited a team that was bad. Everyone knew that

We knew they wouldn't be active in free agency, and they weren't. Not until they got to OTA's and training camp and had a chance to evaluate players with their own eyes. Tape can say one thing, but who's to say the player isn't failing b/c he's doing exactly as he's told. You are better off seeing how they fair in your drills. By the time they realized who was out, the pickin's were slip. The guys they brought in, at least in my eyes, weren't "their guys", they were what was left, but they were still an unknown potential compared to the know crap we had.

Cosmos · 12-15-2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aturnis

Alright Warpath,

I have to tell you to give it a rest. I do believe that EVERYONE knew that the approach for this season was to really sit back and evaluate. They inherited a team that was bad. Everyone knew that

We knew they wouldn't be active in free agency, and they weren't. Not until they got to OTA's and training camp and had a chance to evaluate players with their own eyes. Tape can say one thing, but who's to say the player isn't failing b/c he's doing exactly as he's told. You are better off seeing how they fair in your drills. By the time they realized who was out, the pickin's were slip. The guys they brought in, at least in my eyes, weren't "their guys", they were what was left, but they were still an unknown potential compared to the know crap we had.

With Todd Haley as coach, recent culture of loosing, Clark Hunt on the budget and the uncapped rules.... It will be a bleak offseason in KC.

The only way this team is going to get better is:

Coach the players you have better.
Draft like a genious.
Continue to bring in other teams 54th best player.

**DeezNutz** · 12-15-2009, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aturnis

Alright Warpath,

I have to tell you to give it a rest. I do believe that EVERYONE knew that the approach for this season was to really sit back and evaluate. They inherited a team that was bad. Everyone knew that

We knew they wouldn't be active in free agency, and they weren't. Not until they got to OTA's and training camp and had a chance to evaluate players with their own eyes. Tape can say one thing, but who's to say the player isn't failing b/c he's doing exactly as he's told. You are better off seeing how they fair in your drills. By the time they realized who was out, the pickin's were slip. The guys they brought in, at least in my eyes, weren't "their guys", they were what was left, but they were still an unknown potential compared to the know crap we had.

I don't agree with what's in bold, at all. In fact, if it's true, everyone who is in charge at 1 Arrowhead should be fired immediately.

The goal is always to make progress toward a championship. Period. Not to sit back and evaluate.

You evaluate and then make the necessary moves to get better, and Pioli had sufficient time to do this before a single meaningful snap happened. Arguing otherwise is revisionist history.

As fans, we have to face the distinct possibility that Pioli is dumb as ****. So far, the evidence says he *might* be.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping like hell that he puts together an off-season this coming year that presents an equally convincing counter-argument.

Hammock Parties · 12-15-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

As fans, we have to face the distinct possibility that Pioli is dumb as ****.

New sig.

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-15-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aturnis

Alright Warpath,

I have to tell you to give it a rest. I do believe that EVERYONE knew that the approach for this season was to really sit back and evaluate. They inherited a team that was bad. Everyone knew that

More bullshit.

Pioli turned over 65% of the roster.

If you think that HE expected the Chiefs to win less than 4 games this season, you're delusional.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-15-2009, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aturnis

Alright Warpath,

I have to tell you to give it a rest. I do believe that EVERYONE knew that the approach for this season was to really sit back and evaluate. They inherited a team that was bad. Everyone knew that

We knew they wouldn't be active in free agency, and they weren't. Not until they got to OTA's and training camp and had a chance to evaluate players with their own eyes. Tape can say one thing, but who's to say the player isn't failing b/c he's doing exactly as he's told. You are better off seeing how they fair in your drills. By the time they realized who was out, the pickin's were slip. The guys they brought in, at least in my eyes, weren't "their guys", they were what was left, but they were still an unknown potential compared to the know crap we had.

Looks like everything that I would have said in response to this post has already been said.

12-14-2009, 02:15 PM	#5
DaWolf Cry havoc... Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10007725	There are a few reasons I would give Pioli some more time: 1) Hunt didn't hire him to just come in and "fix" the existing team. He hired him to change the entire culture of the football side of the operations. Pioli said from the beginning that doing this would not happen overnight and that they may have to step back before moving forward. If Clark wanted to stay the course with the roster and culture in place, he should have promoted Kuharic and kept Herm around. 2) Pioli wasn't able to get his own personnel department and scouts set until after the draft, when contracts expired and new hires were available. Now this may not seem like a big deal or it may just be some excuse if you believe all personnel departments are created equally and it is just the top guy who makes all the calls, but I'll be curious to see if there is any difference this coming offseason. 3) Rookies usually can't be fully evaluated their first year. Some rooks look great and just fade after a few years, others bust out in the 2nd or 3rd year. I'm not going to sit here and say we had a great draft by any means, but I think you need to let the class mature a bit more before writing it off. 4) This is not new to Pioli, in New England they did a very similar thing in 2000, taking an 8-8 football team, getting rid of a bunch of guys and signing a bunch of scrubs, and going 5-11, and starting the next year off 1-3 before going on their run. Now they had a better core of veteran players in place to start with than we do, but I think the philosophy is to bring in guys who buy into the "system" and slowly start to build that roster. By year three, a lot of the guys starting or playing significant portions for us now should be valuable depth if the so called "process" works and better and better talent is brought in. I agree that right now a lot of the moves look bad and we're not much better off than we were to start with. And if we don't have a significant talent influx this offseason, then something is amiss and you can go to the top there, because he's now had enough time not only to get his front office pieces in place, but he's had the time to get a firsthand look at the roster he has and who fits in and who doesn't. Pioli may well be in over his head, and maybe he's not going to be able to get it done here. The biggest thing I have against him right now is not on the personnel front, but on the coaching hire front. Haley is bugging me more and more every week. I think the biggest reflection on a roster that isn't improving is the quality of the coaching. I don't care who you have playing, good coaches will always get their guys to improve as the year goes on. We're sinking. And we could arguably have three more wins with a better prepared football team. So if there are not some big changes on the staff this offseason, I don't think Pioli will have much of a chance even if he has an A+ draft this offseason...
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