Chiefs Why people are disappointed: Exhibit A - Talent Evaluation - Page 11

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-14-2009, 11:24 AM

Since there seems to be several myths, excuses and some flat-out lies about why some folks are pissed off about this team right now, I thought I'd put together a few threads explaining, as clearly as I can, where people are coming from.

One of the bigger excuses is the infamous, "Pioli inherited a shitty team."

Let me make this clear: I do not disagree.

However, that doesn't excuse the Executive of the Decade for the team being no better now than it was this time last year - and you could make an argument that it is worse.

And one of the reasons why this team still sucks is simple:

The Executive of the Decade missed BADLY on talent evaluation.

I just spent a few minutes researching the transactions Pioli has made since taking the job, and it's even worse than I originally thought.

Counting draft picks, trades and signings, Pioli is responsible for FORTY FIVE new players to this organization.

And of these 45, it's fair to say that only Succop and Chambers are clear upgrades to their predecessors.

Two. Out of forty-five.

That's a whopping 4% success rate.

I'm sorry, but blaming Herm here is ridiculous. The best players on this team are Herm's players.

Looking at the current roster - including the active roster, PS and IR - 54% of the players currently in this organization are Pioli's.

Exactly half of the current starting 22 are Pioli's.

And this team is ONE win better than a 2008 squad that featured Tyler ****ing Thigpen at QB, and employed Gunther Cunningham as the DC.

With the majority being Pioli's hand-picked players.

Let the excuses flow like fine wine.

Discus.

This ought to be fun - let's hit that Millionth post.

keg in kc · 12-16-2009, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

I'm talking about real power, not public perception.

Then maybe you should use a word other than figurehead...

(you know a figurehead is a person who appears to be in charge and isn't, right? Which is what you're saying Haley is...)

Hammock Parties · 12-16-2009, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

Then maybe you should use a word other than figurehead...

(you know a figurehead is a person who appears to be in charge and isn't, right? Which is what you're saying Haley is...)

No, I think I used the right word.

If Clark Hunt was disappointed with Pioli and wanted to hire a head coach and give the new head coach all the power, Pioli would become the figurehead.

Right now Haley is a figurehead. He doesn't have all the power no matter how the Chiefs present it.

chiefzilla1501 · 12-16-2009, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbucks24

If Pioli had no chance of drafting capably because he didn't have "his" guys in place, the same should be said of EVERY new GM? Why do some new GM's draft ok the first year? Luck? Madan Cloe? Why do some teams do well the first year under a new GM? Some actually improve. Magic 8 ball?

And what was more important to Pioli when he got here than the draft? Couldn't he do the administrative stuff later? Change the office around and fire the security guard after the draft? I would have though that he would have spent a LOT of time on the draft when he first got here. Yeah, hire a coach, but leave the rest of the stuff till later. Then again, maybe I'm wrong. I do know that everytime I've been asked to take over a business, I'm expected to make progress quickly. Gone are the days of getting worse before it gets better.

This is a pretty terrific post. It's not always an apples to apples comparison. I would argue that the Chiefs had a lot more dysfunction in the front office (20 years under the same regime) and whereas some GMs inherit teams with decent foundations, playmakers, and something to build upon, the Chiefs really didn't. They had to start mostly from scratch. The best apples to apples comparison, to me, was the Rams. And even they weren't nearly as dysfunctional in the front office as the Chiefs were.

Sometimes when you start from scratch, it's better to take your time. Better to move slowly in no direction than to move quickly in the wrong direction. Cassel was the only major whiff so far. Most of the other guys brought in seem to have been brought in moreso for cultural reasons and to serve as stopgaps. I'm sure nobody in the front office really cared if Engram was a bust, nor did they expect him to be some kind of savior. Remember that the Pats stayed pretty quiet for several years, and then all of a sudden went on a spending binge to get Welker, Moss, etc....

I hope like hell that this is the case and I'm willing to give him at leasts the offseason to prove it. But be prepared to also maybe find out that Pioli isn't very good at this.

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-16-2009, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

This is a pretty terrific post.

Except for the fact that he, like you, easily discount the fact that every player acquired by Pioli, whether it be through the draft or free agency, have not been IMPACT players.

They've been marginal at best.

If that does not improve, it doesn't matter WHO is in place in the front office.

Personnel is of utmost importance.

chiefzilla1501 · 12-16-2009, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Except for the fact that he, like you, easily discount the fact that every player acquired by Pioli, whether it be through the draft or free agency, have not been IMPACT players.

They've been marginal at best.

If that does not improve, it doesn't matter WHO is in place in the front office.

Personnel is of utmost importance.

Well, Pioli may have whiffed on Cassel. But apart from that, it's not like he signed many other free agents who were expected to be anything more than a stopgap. I don't know why he chose to do that. But I also recall that he did this in New England and then out of nowhere exploded by bringing in Moss, Welker, etc.... Maybe he wants to crawl before he walks and runs. I hope that's the case. Then again, he might just be an idiot.

As for the draft, you can chalk it up as excuses. I know the 2009 draft was shitty. But I also really like the guy he brought in as Director of College Scouting. And it sounds like the Chiefs are aggressively attacking scouting than they ever have before. I don't currently trust him, but I'm willing to wait and see what Emery puts together.

I know it sounds like I'm being a homer for Pioli. I'm not. I hate most of the moves he's made. I just happen to think that this offseason is the true test of what he really wants to do with this team.

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-16-2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Well, Pioli may have whiffed on Cassel.

Pioli "whiffed" on 35 players he brought in.

35 players. 65% of the roster.

That is inexcusable.

chiefzilla1501 · 12-16-2009, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Pioli "whiffed" on 35 players he brought in.

35 players. 65% of the roster.

That is inexcusable.

It is inexcusable. But it's not like he brought these 35 players in thinking that the majority of them were going to be long-term contributors to this team. Almost all of them were brought in to be stopgaps or diamonds in the rough. And most of them replaced players who haven't contributed elsewhere either. The fact that almost all of them had easy-to-cut contracts indicates that even Pioli knew most of these guys wouldn't pan out. I don't know why he wasn't more aggressive in the offseason. But it seems pretty clear that that was intentional.

He mentioned in a presser earlier in the year that he wants to be aggressive in the offseason. I want to see how he fares when he aims for the cream of the crop instead of the bottom of the barrel (hopefully, he gets that chance with the CBA still in doubt). And the scouting network is usually responsible for 3rd to 7th round draft choices. Let's see if Emery's role will help bring in much better talent between those rounds and through undrafted rookies.

Like I said. He had a shitty 2009. And yes, it is unacceptable. I'm just saying that I don't think bargain hunting is going to be representative of his strategy beyond 2009. And I hope to god that Emery and the new scouts will make him better in the war room. We'll have to see.

bigbucks24 · 12-16-2009, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Except for the fact that he, like you, easily discount the fact that every player acquired by Pioli, whether it be through the draft or free agency, have not been IMPACT players.

They've been marginal at best.

If that does not improve, it doesn't matter WHO is in place in the front office.

Personnel is of utmost importance.

On the contrary. I am disputing the excuse that "Pioli whiffed because he didn't have his own guys in place". He started in the exact same place as every new GM. None have their own guys in place because of the way scouts contracts go, etc. So "Exec of All Time" should have done as well if not better than every other new GM. That doesn't seem to be the case.

And I completely agree that personnel is priority #1, which is why I can't understand the argument that he didn't have time to focus on the draft because of all the chaos in the office and all the administrative stuff he had to do. Could he not have worried about that stuff later and spent the first 3 months totally focused on the draft (and hiring a HC)?

Getting talented, impact players is the base of a great team. I agree with the philosophy of the "Right 53" (isn't that a Parcellism?). But it's not 53 players with the right attitude, its 53 TALENTED players with the right attitude.

bigbucks24 · 12-16-2009, 01:25 AM

I think everyone would feel better if he had turned over 65% of the roster by cutting or trading old, expensive veterans for young guys with an upside. Or if they signed some high priced, highly talented guys. It doesn't seem like he did either of those.

Mojo Jojo · 12-16-2009, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Well, Pioli may have whiffed on Cassel. But apart from that, it's not like he signed many other free agents who were expected to be anything more than a stopgap. I don't know why he chose to do that. But I also recall that he did this in New England and then out of nowhere exploded by bringing in Moss, Welker, etc.... Maybe he wants to crawl before he walks and runs. I hope that's the case. Then again, he might just be an idiot.

As for the draft, you can chalk it up as excuses. I know the 2009 draft was shitty. But I also really like the guy he brought in as Director of College Scouting. And it sounds like the Chiefs are aggressively attacking scouting than they ever have before. I don't currently trust him, but I'm willing to wait and see what Emery puts together.

I know it sounds like I'm being a homer for Pioli. I'm not. I hate most of the moves he's made. I just happen to think that this offseason is the true test of what he really wants to do with this team.

The Patriot way is to bring in middle of the road talent and coach it up. You may remember the Pats haven't won a Super Bowl since bringing in Moss or Welker.

**DeezNutz** · 12-16-2009, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbucks24

I think everyone would feel better if he had turned over 65% of the roster by cutting or trading old, expensive veterans for young guys with an upside. Or if they signed some high priced, highly talented guys. It doesn't seem like he did either of those.

Or if the old, relatively inexpensive guys he brought in were actually good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo Jojo

The Patriot way is to bring in middle of the road talent and coach it up. You may remember the Pats haven't won a Super Bowl since bringing in Moss or Welker.

We're in deep shit.

**dirk digler** · 12-16-2009, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo Jojo

The Patriot way is to bring in middle of the road talent and coach it up. You may remember the Pats haven't won a Super Bowl since bringing in Moss or Welker.

Yeah I think most Chiefs fans would be disappointed with a 18-1 record and a SB appearance. I know I would be.

**MahiMike** · 12-16-2009, 07:18 AM

Pioli is doing things completely different than any other Chiefs regime and people are questioning this? Len Dawson will be at the superbowl this year to celebrate 40 freaking years of ineptness. Chiefs fans have about as much patience for a GM as they do a QB.

Give Pioli credit for this at least; he knew this team wasn't going anywhere this year and purposely brought in lesser/cheaper talent. Why would he even think about wasting anything more? He knew we'd win about 5 games and that was planned for as well. He's looking to make a bigger push each year. This year was a "purge and evaluate" year. The only mistake I've seen is it took too long to get rid of LJ.

Slow and steady wins the race.

Fish · 12-16-2009, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MahiMike

Pioli is doing things completely different than any other Chiefs regime and people are questioning this? Len Dawson will be at the superbowl this year to celebrate 40 freaking years of ineptness. Chiefs fans have about as much patience for a GM as they do a QB.

Give Pioli credit for this at least; he knew this team wasn't going anywhere this year and purposely brought in lesser/cheaper talent. Why would he even think about wasting anything more? He knew we'd win about 5 games and that was planned for as well. He's looking to make a bigger push each year. This year was a "purge and evaluate" year. The only mistake I've seen is it took too long to get rid of LJ.

Slow and steady wins the race.

You really want to give Pioli credit for the above bolded sentence? Seriously? Our GM is throwing away an entire season, and purposely brought in players he knew weren't winners, and you want to give him credit for this?

Wow.

I'm in amazement of how many fans are justifying a "throw away" season in which zero progress has been made, all for the sake of hope for the future. **** you Carl Peterson.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-16-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Pioli "whiffed" on 35 players he brought in.

35 players. 65% of the roster.

That is inexcusable.

More than that, Dane. I actually looked over every transaction since Pioli's hire and did some quick math.

Counting draft picks, he's responsible for bringing in 45 new players.

37 of which are still on either the active roster, PS, or IR.

That 37 represents 54% of the players in the entire organization - again, active, PS and IR

Exactly half of the starting 22 are Pioli's players.

12-14-2009, 11:24 AM
OnTheWarpath15 MVP Join Date: Sep 2005 Casino cash: $2021115	Why people are disappointed: Exhibit A - Talent Evaluation Since there seems to be several myths, excuses and some flat-out lies about why some folks are pissed off about this team right now, I thought I'd put together a few threads explaining, as clearly as I can, where people are coming from. One of the bigger excuses is the infamous, "Pioli inherited a shitty team." Let me make this clear: I do not disagree. However, that doesn't excuse the Executive of the Decade for the team being no better now than it was this time last year - and you could make an argument that it is worse. And one of the reasons why this team still sucks is simple: The Executive of the Decade missed BADLY on talent evaluation. I just spent a few minutes researching the transactions Pioli has made since taking the job, and it's even worse than I originally thought. Counting draft picks, trades and signings, Pioli is responsible for FORTY FIVE new players to this organization. And of these 45, it's fair to say that only Succop and Chambers are clear upgrades to their predecessors. Two. Out of forty-five. That's a whopping 4% success rate. I'm sorry, but blaming Herm here is ridiculous. The best players on this team are Herm's players. Looking at the current roster - including the active roster, PS and IR - 54% of the players currently in this organization are Pioli's. Exactly half of the current starting 22 are Pioli's. And this team is ONE win better than a 2008 squad that featured Tyler ****ing Thigpen at QB, and employed Gunther Cunningham as the DC. With the majority being Pioli's hand-picked players. Let the excuses flow like fine wine. Discus. This ought to be fun - let's hit that Millionth post.
Posts: 60,758

12-16-2009, 01:25 AM	#159
bigbucks24 Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV Casino cash: $9688694	I think everyone would feel better if he had turned over 65% of the roster by cutting or trading old, expensive veterans for young guys with an upside. Or if they signed some high priced, highly talented guys. It doesn't seem like he did either of those.
Posts: 590

12-16-2009, 07:18 AM	#163
MahiMike He's Mahomie! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Jax, FL Casino cash: $10023443	Pioli is doing things completely different than any other Chiefs regime and people are questioning this? Len Dawson will be at the superbowl this year to celebrate 40 freaking years of ineptness. Chiefs fans have about as much patience for a GM as they do a QB. Give Pioli credit for this at least; he knew this team wasn't going anywhere this year and purposely brought in lesser/cheaper talent. Why would he even think about wasting anything more? He knew we'd win about 5 games and that was planned for as well. He's looking to make a bigger push each year. This year was a "purge and evaluate" year. The only mistake I've seen is it took too long to get rid of LJ. Slow and steady wins the race. __________________ 99.9%
Posts: 17,387