This Should Keep Us All Thinking

[El Jefe]

Originally Posted by blazzin311

Exactly what I was saying above. There's no really right or wrong answer here. That's what's good about it. It's all about everyone's individual opinions and what they themselves believe in. At least that's the way I interpret this.

I just always find it funny how much heat those of us who are "religious" take on CP. I learned the hard way when I first joined and I always wanted to stand up for my beliefs, and I still will to this day. I have never tried to shove my faith down other peoples throats or anything like that, but have been called a "Bible thumper" "church boy" and just stupid things like that. I find it funny that CP as a whole is very intolerant of those with any religious background. There is a difference between not liking someone because they are jamming their religion down your throat, and not liking someone because they stand up for their faith.

[verbaljitsu]

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoJC

I just always find it funny how much heat those of us who are "religious" take on CP. I learned the hard way when I first joined and I always wanted to stand up for my beliefs, and I still will to this day. I have never tried to shove my faith down other peoples throats or anything like that, but have been called a "Bible thumper" "church boy" and just stupid things like that. I find it funny that CP as a whole is very intolerant of those with any religious background. There is a difference between not liking someone because they are jamming their religion down your throat, and not liking someone because they stand up for their faith.

Yeah yeah, you are so persecuted.

Its not that I don't like you - I mean, I don't even know you. You are probably a nice person. Its that the title of your post was something to the effect that "this should keep us all thinking," but then when I watch the video, I think it really encourages the opposite of thinking. And it falls into the larger pattern of how religions tend to operate.

You are confusing intolerance with a general disagreement and lack of respect. You start a thread with a religious theme. I provide a different opinion. That isn't intolerance. Intolerance would be me driving to your house, burning your bibles, and making you a martyr (something I am completely uninterested in doing and morally opposed to). Intolerance is the Holocaust, the pogroms in Europe, the killing of Tibetans, the extermination of the Native Americans. I just think the system of thought you privilege (i.e. Faith > Reason) is ridiculous.

When Christians whine about how they are persecuted, I find it laughable. A significant portion of the time I feel like the stories are just fabricated (like the story of the professor in the video). The rest of the time, disagreement or dissatisfaction with a Christianist agenda is mistaken for persecution. Christians are the most powerful interest group in the country for better or for worse.

[Slayer Diablo]

Originally Posted by verbaljitsu

Yeah yeah, you are so persecuted.

... ...

When Christians whine about how they are persecuted, I find it laughable. A significant portion of the time I feel like the stories are just fabricated (like the story of the professor in the video). The rest of the time, disagreement or dissatisfaction with a Christianist agenda is mistaken for persecution. Christians are the most powerful interest group in the country for better or for worse.

First and foremost, it depends on the denomination of Christianity. Catholics, LDS, and the sects are definitely persecuted throughout the country and the world with the exception of a few key locations. If you don't believe it, drive through the Bible Belt and talk to people.

Secondly, lobbyists and organizations who happen to have mostly Christians are not always trying to push something specifically because it's part of a "Christian agenda". Half the time, they can't even agree on what it means to be a Christian; very few of them even agree on the politics that can be derived from it.

Finally, look at the stats on minorities a little bit harder before using graphics like that. Women account for over half of the world population and over half of the population in most countries, yet they are persecuted like hell--with plenty of remnants of that persecution still alive and well in the United States. By the same token, it doesn't matter if Christians hold the majority as long as a minority or group of minorities is stronger or has more power on their side.

[verbaljitsu]

Originally Posted by Slayer

First and foremost, it depends on the denomination of Christianity. Catholics, LDS, and the sects are definitely persecuted throughout the country and the world with the exception of a few key locations. If you don't believe it, drive through the Bible Belt and talk to people.

Secondly, lobbyists and organizations who happen to have mostly Christians are not always trying to push something specifically because it's part of a "Christian agenda". Half the time, they can't even agree on what it means to be a Christian; very few of them even agree on the politics that can be derived from it.

Finally, look at the stats on minorities a little bit harder before using graphics like that. Women account for over half of the world population and over half of the population in most countries, yet they are persecuted like hell--with plenty of remnants of that persecution still alive and well in the United States. By the same token, it doesn't matter if Christians hold the majority as long as a minority or group of minorities is stronger or has more power on their side.

Once again, "persecution"? I was unaware that we were systematically legislating away the rights of Catholics, LDS, and other sects. Maybe I missed all the violence directed at them. Weird. Maybe what you mean to say is "Catholics and LDS aren't popular in the Bible Belt." But that is different. And ironically enough...the Catholics/LDS that are supposedly being persecuted are being persecuted by fellow believers (not the likes of me). You know, the ones that live in the "bible belt."

I basically agree with your second point.

But, I vehemently disagree with your third point. Women have historically been discriminated against in the United States. Christians do not share that history. Woman account for slightly more than half of the population. Contrast that to roughly 75% of the population being Christians (in the US). It is damn near impossible to ever form a plurality that could overwhelm a 75% majority. Even though women make up a slight majority, their collective economic strength is fairly dismal (b/c of past and current discrimination). Christianity does not share that problem. At all. Churches rarely pay taxes and accumulate wealth at an astounding rate. And frankly, ironically enough, it is religious institutions that have historically been a driving force in discriminating against women - both directly and indirectly. Perhaps the only force strong enough to keep the women (and thus the majority of the population) controlled is the patriarchy of religion?

[Slayer Diablo]

Originally Posted by verbaljitsu

Once again, "persecution"? I was unaware that we were systematically legislating away the rights of Catholics, LDS, and other sects. Maybe I missed all the violence directed at them. Weird. Maybe what you mean to say is "Catholics and LDS aren't popular in the Bible Belt." But that is different. And ironically enough...the Catholics/LDS that are supposedly being persecuted are being persecuted by fellow believers (not the likes of me). You know, the ones that live in the "bible belt."

I basically agree with your second point.

But, I vehemently disagree with your third point. Women have historically been discriminated against in the United States. Christians do not share that history. Woman account for slightly more than half of the population. Contrast that to roughly 75% of the population being Christians (in the US). It is damn near impossible to ever form a plurality that could overwhelm a 75% majority. Even though women make up a slight majority, their collective economic strength is fairly dismal (b/c of past and current discrimination). Christianity does not share that problem. At all. Churches rarely pay taxes and accumulate wealth at an astounding rate. And frankly, ironically enough, it is religious institutions that have historically been a driving force in discriminating against women - both directly and indirectly. Perhaps the only force strong enough to keep the women (and thus the majority of the population) controlled is the patriarchy of religion?

Persecution does not have to be in the form of legislation, throwing people to the lions, or setting people on fire. Social and psychological persecution can exist without any of these things. It's all a matter of excluding a particular group of people, degrading them, and/or arguing with every little thing that they say...this stuff, of course, would have to be on a consistent basis, which it is in many parts of the country. Now is it a major violent upheaval to rid the world of certain denominations? No, of course not. Is it a blanket statement that every person in the United States feels the same way and tries to persecute everyone else? No, that would be ridiculous. It's a matter of several communities having high levels of persecution. And it's not merely because it is "unpopular", but because the beliefs are severely disliked by people who have influence in one way or another. This is how the Catholics come to being shunned as a cult.
The idea that it is the followers persecuting one another goes to an extent, but it doesn't hold water. Persecution because of beliefs is still just that; especially among denominations that are fundamentally different from one another. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God, but does lump everyone together to the extent that Christian persecution of Jews never counted as real persecution? **** no!
I think you may have missed the entire point about women being discriminated against. That is just one example of how a majority can be persecuted. Try looking through the books again to get an idea of how many times it has happened throughout history. Tyrants demand the respect of small armies in order to take over entire populations, and even the tyrants treat the soldiers like sh*t in some of these instances. Europeans move to various places around the world, help in building among the current residents, and proceed to begin persecution. In the animal kingdom, the wolf pack is controlled by one alpha male who has his way with all of the females and fights any lower male he doesn't like.

Anyway, with all that said, I don't have the time to start a blog on all of this. If you want an argument, copy and paste the convo into WDC and ask around...someone there will either take up at least one of my points or come up with a whole other set of reasons to disagree with you.

[verbaljitsu]

Originally Posted by Slayer

Persecution does not have to be in the form of legislation, throwing people to the lions, or setting people on fire. Social and psychological persecution can exist without any of these things. It's all a matter of excluding a particular group of people, degrading them, and/or arguing with every little thing that they say...this stuff, of course, would have to be on a consistent basis, which it is in many parts of the country. Now is it a major violent upheaval to rid the world of certain denominations? No, of course not. Is it a blanket statement that every person in the United States feels the same way and tries to persecute everyone else? No, that would be ridiculous. It's a matter of several communities having high levels of persecution. And it's not merely because it is "unpopular", but because the beliefs are severely disliked by people who have influence in one way or another. This is how the Catholics come to being shunned as a cult.
The idea that it is the followers persecuting one another goes to an extent, but it doesn't hold water. Persecution because of beliefs is still just that; especially among denominations that are fundamentally different from one another. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God, but does lump everyone together to the extent that Christian persecution of Jews never counted as real persecution? **** no!
I think you may have missed the entire point about women being discriminated against. That is just one example of how a majority can be persecuted. Try looking through the books again to get an idea of how many times it has happened throughout history. Tyrants demand the respect of small armies in order to take over entire populations, and even the tyrants treat the soldiers like sh*t in some of these instances. Europeans move to various places around the world, help in building among the current residents, and proceed to begin persecution. In the animal kingdom, the wolf pack is controlled by one alpha male who has his way with all of the females and fights any lower male he doesn't like.

Anyway, with all that said, I don't have the time to start a blog on all of this. If you want an argument, copy and paste the convo into WDC and ask around...someone there will either take up at least one of my points or come up with a whole other set of reasons to disagree with you.

Your definition of persecution is hilarious. But even so, it is other religious people perpetrating the "persecution" you are talking about. You are subtly changing the definition of the word, and also changing the context of this argument. Christian person poses dumb video > some non-Christians making fun of it > leads to persecution complex from Christians. Nothing done in this thread could constitute persecution. Frankly I don't think anything done in any meaningful or significant way in this country could constitute persecution of Christians. Religion is not an immutable characteristic. To the extent that it annoys Christians that people don't immediately slob all of their knob to tell them how much they love their particular dogmatic bullshit, it does not constitute persecution. Disagreement does not constitute persecution. Since there is no way to tell what religion (if any) someone is, without them first telling you, and it is basically illegal under Title VII to so much as inquire in employment settings your persecution complex is laughable. Since roughly 3/4 of the country shares belief in the basic tenets of Christianity, your notion is laughable. Call me unsympathetic to even potentially legitimate claims of (for example) the Catholics being persecuted in the Bible Belt, since the entire history of the Catholic church is wrought with REAL persecution (you know, burning jews at the stake, torturing people on the rack, committing genocide).

You are right that Christians, Jews, and Muslims perpetually persecute one another. It is almost so ubiquitous as to be part of the character flaw that is religion. However, it has nothing to do with the context of the thread which is whining that non-believers are meany heads for making fun of a reeruned video in an internet message board. This is not and never will be persecution regardless of how desperately you want it to be.

Your point about minority oppression of majorities is completely vacuous. I've already explained several of the factors that contribute to that happening. None are present in modern day America. Minorities can oppress majorities when the minority has all the economic power (men vs. women), when they are backed by an outside power that is rich and technologically powerful (the Hutus and Tutsis + Belgium), or when the majority is only hanging on by a thread (men vs. women).

Christians make up 3/4 of the country, have vast swaths of economic power (largely because of the tax code), and America IS the most powerful country in the world which insulates American Christians from the effects of outside intervention. Generally and ironically, when minorities dominate majorities, there is a religious component. Religions generally have economic power and can inspire people to do cosmically stupid things. It is very difficult to muster secular forces to take on entrenched religious forces.

[stumppy]

Originally Posted by verbaljitsu

Your definition of persecution is hilarious. But even so, it is other religious people perpetrating the "persecution" you are talking about. You are subtly changing the definition of the word, and also changing the context of this argument. Christian person poses dumb video > some non-Christians making fun of it > leads to persecution complex from Christians. Nothing done in this thread could constitute persecution. Frankly I don't think anything done in any meaningful or significant way in this country could constitute persecution of Christians. Religion is not an immutable characteristic. To the extent that it annoys Christians that people don't immediately slob all of their knob to tell them how much they love their particular dogmatic bullshit, it does not constitute persecution. Disagreement does not constitute persecution. Since there is no way to tell what religion (if any) someone is, without them first telling you, and it is basically illegal under Title VII to so much as inquire in employment settings your persecution complex is laughable. Since roughly 3/4 of the country shares belief in the basic tenets of Christianity, your notion is laughable. Call me unsympathetic to even potentially legitimate claims of (for example) the Catholics being persecuted in the Bible Belt, since the entire history of the Catholic church is wrought with REAL persecution (you know, burning jews at the stake, torturing people on the rack, committing genocide).

You are right that Christians, Jews, and Muslims perpetually persecute one another. It is almost so ubiquitous as to be part of the character flaw that is religion. However, it has nothing to do with the context of the thread which is whining that non-believers are meany heads for making fun of a reeruned video in an internet message board. This is not and never will be persecution regardless of how desperately you want it to be.

Your point about minority oppression of majorities is completely vacuous. I've already explained several of the factors that contribute to that happening. None are present in modern day America. Minorities can oppress majorities when the minority has all the economic power (men vs. women), when they are backed by an outside power that is rich and technologically powerful (the Hutus and Tutsis + Belgium), or when the majority is only hanging on by a thread (men vs. women).

Christians make up 3/4 of the country, have vast swaths of economic power (largely because of the tax code), and America IS the most powerful country in the world which insulates American Christians from the effects of outside intervention. Generally and ironically, when minorities dominate majorities, there is a religious component. Religions generally have economic power and can inspire people to do cosmically stupid things. It is very difficult to muster secular forces to take on entrenched religious forces.

Been waiting to see how you ripped up his last response. Nice job !

Uh......do you do parties ? There's a few people I know who could stand to be reamed out on a variety of subjects. I don't have the patience. Everytime I start to point out their idiocy I just end up saying something like 'You're an idiot'.

[Slayer Diablo]

Originally Posted by verbaljitsu

Your definition of persecution is hilarious. But even so, it is other religious people perpetrating the "persecution" you are talking about. You are subtly changing the definition of the word, and also changing the context of this argument.
....

Only thing that matters. 'Nuf said.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/persecute
–verb (used with object), -cut⋅ed, -cut⋅ing. 1. to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, esp. because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently.
2. to annoy or trouble persistently.

[HMc]

Originally Posted by verbaljitsu

Your definition of persecution is hilarious. But even so, it is other religious people perpetrating the "persecution" you are talking about. You are subtly changing the definition of the word, and also changing the context of this argument. Christian person poses dumb video > some non-Christians making fun of it > leads to persecution complex from Christians. Nothing done in this thread could constitute persecution. Frankly I don't think anything done in any meaningful or significant way in this country could constitute persecution of Christians. Religion is not an immutable characteristic. To the extent that it annoys Christians that people don't immediately slob all of their knob to tell them how much they love their particular dogmatic bullshit, it does not constitute persecution. Disagreement does not constitute persecution. Since there is no way to tell what religion (if any) someone is, without them first telling you, and it is basically illegal under Title VII to so much as inquire in employment settings your persecution complex is laughable. Since roughly 3/4 of the country shares belief in the basic tenets of Christianity, your notion is laughable. Call me unsympathetic to even potentially legitimate claims of (for example) the Catholics being persecuted in the Bible Belt, since the entire history of the Catholic church is wrought with REAL persecution (you know, burning jews at the stake, torturing people on the rack, committing genocide).

You are right that Christians, Jews, and Muslims perpetually persecute one another. It is almost so ubiquitous as to be part of the character flaw that is religion. However, it has nothing to do with the context of the thread which is whining that non-believers are meany heads for making fun of a reeruned video in an internet message board. This is not and never will be persecution regardless of how desperately you want it to be.

Your point about minority oppression of majorities is completely vacuous. I've already explained several of the factors that contribute to that happening. None are present in modern day America. Minorities can oppress majorities when the minority has all the economic power (men vs. women), when they are backed by an outside power that is rich and technologically powerful (the Hutus and Tutsis + Belgium), or when the majority is only hanging on by a thread (men vs. women).

Christians make up 3/4 of the country, have vast swaths of economic power (largely because of the tax code), and America IS the most powerful country in the world which insulates American Christians from the effects of outside intervention. Generally and ironically, when minorities dominate majorities, there is a religious component. Religions generally have economic power and can inspire people to do cosmically stupid things. It is very difficult to muster secular forces to take on entrenched religious forces.

Holy crap. Can you throw a reasonable deep ball?

rep

[RJ]

Originally Posted by Slayer

It's all a matter of excluding a particular group of people, degrading them, and/or arguing with every little thing that they say...

You mean all these years my wife has been persecuting me? I thought she was just being contrary.

She's gonna hear about this when I get home.

[verbaljitsu]

Originally Posted by RJ

You mean all these years my wife has been persecuting me? I thought she was just being contrary.

She's gonna hear about this when I get home.

LOL

[TigerPig]

Originally Posted by verbaljitsu

It looks like a lavender Pac-Man with lipstick and teeth.

[Kyle DeLexus]

Originally Posted by TigerPig

It looks like a lavender Pac-Man with lipstick and teeth.

You know how I know your gay?

[Discuss Thrower]

Originally Posted by Kyle DeLexus

You know how I know your gay?

... and color blind?

[TigerPig]

Originally Posted by Kyle DeLexus

You know how I know your gay?

Because I watch, "Maid in Manhattan?"

Originally Posted by J-Town Fan 1988

... and color blind?

This I am...