Bill Simmons on Tom Brady/Matt Cassel

[Hootie]

The Montreal Screw-Job Award for "Most Shocking Turn on a Beloved Figure"

I didn't call my father during the first half of the Baltimore beating. There was nothing to say. When you give up an 83-yard run to start a game against a team you know wants to run 40 times, you kinda know how it's going to turn out. We all knew the 2009 Patriots had a playoff stink bomb in them; just not in Round 1 at home. Anyway, I was too depressed to call him at halftime. After another Brady interception in the third quarter, my cell phone started vibrating. Yup, it was a text from my dad.

"We never should have traded Cassel."

(Ouch.)

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Hootie

hey milkman...real quick...can I get your input?

What's my devastating to a team?

A pick 6 in the 1st half of the AFC Championship game?

Or...

An interception in the oppositions territory on a 2nd down when you're down by 4 in the AFC Championship game, last drive of the season, where a TD advances you to the Super Bowl...and a turnover ends your season?

Which one is more devastating to a team?

I saw that argument with Hamas, and I'd have to say that as much I hate agree with you in any debate, I do agree with you on that.

[Pioli Zombie]

Originally Posted by Hootie

hey milkman...real quick...can I get your input?

What's my devastating to a team?

A pick 6 in the 1st half of the AFC Championship game?

Or...

An interception in the oppositions territory on a 2nd down when you're down by 4 in the AFC Championship game, last drive of the season, where a TD advances you to the Super Bowl...and a turnover ends your season?

Which one is more devastating to a team?

How about playing like shit against the Jets in the 2002 playoffs!, throwing 4 picks in the 2003 AFCCG, putting up 3 points against the Patriots in 2004, playing like shit against the Steelers in 2005 and Chargers in 2007 and 2008.
Was that devastating to his team?
Posted via Mobile Device

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Hootie

the problem with this debate is my posts are FULL of substance...because I have statistics and GAME PROVIDED evidence to back up my claims...

So the debate always hits a brick wall because the Brady backers have nothing to turn to eventually...

Shit milkman played the "Peyton Manning is a pussy in the pocket" card because they TRULY have nothing left and that is what they are down to.

The point, dumbass, is that in offense that is predicated on timing, the QB has to be able to stand in the pocket and deliver the pass at the right time.

The chance that it might lead to injury is greater, so one could argue that he's protecting the Colts chances.

However, Kurt Warner stands in the pocket and delivers in the face of pressure, which has left him playing with a lot of nicks and dings, and a couple injuries, including a thumb which had a huge affect on his performance for a couple years.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Hootie

I mean...

Peyton Manning had a perfect QB rating against Denver in 2003 in the playoffs...with 5 TD's...and followed that up by beating the Chiefs in a hostile Arrowhead environment in a game that featured no punts...

But those don't count...he didn't deliver in those games...

We'll just point out his 3 shitty games against the Patriots...a team who lost draft picks, significant ones, for CHEATING over those years...

and we'll turn a blind eye at Tom Brady and his postseason "chokes"...

For every Peyton Manning choke, I can match it with a Tom Brady choke...

Just so you know.

Do you not understand "in the clutch, late in games"?

Other than that shitty game against the shitty Chiefs defense when he nearly pissed away the game to a terrible Chiefs team, playing well against far inferior opponents is not surprising.

He should.

I'm talking about making plays against top tier teams with top defenses in the face of consistent pressure, late in games when he needs to lead his team to scores.

He's delivered only once.

[Pioli Zombie]

Originally Posted by Hootie

I mean...

Peyton Manning had a perfect QB rating against Denver in 2003 in the playoffs...with 5 TD's...and followed that up by beating the Chiefs in a hostile Arrowhead environment in a game that featured no punts...

But those don't count...he didn't deliver in those games...

We'll just point out his 3 shitty games against the Patriots...a team who lost draft picks, significant ones, for CHEATING over those years...

and we'll turn a blind eye at Tom Brady and his postseason "chokes"...

For every Peyton Manning choke, I can match it with a Tom Brady choke...

Just so you know.

I love this. I just pointed out all of Mannings chokes. Please match it.
Hootie. Nobody has made the stupid claim that Manning is not a great qb. You are the one has knocked Brady. You haven't made a credible case.
And you make up false stats, like Brady led the Patriots on 20 yard drives so that Vinatieri could kick 45 yard fgs. In SB 36 the drive was 53 yards in 1:21 with no timeouts. The SB 38 drive was 30 with a minute and no timeout after he had passed for over 300 yards and led them on a clutch TD drive to put them ahead before Carolina came back with a quick TD pass to Proehl.
Try not making up shit to make a moronic point.
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[Pioli Zombie]

Originally Posted by milkman

The point, dumbass, is that in offense that is predicated on timing, the QB has to be able to stand in the pocket and deliver the pass at the right time.

The chance that it might lead to injury is greater, so one could argue that he's protecting the Colts chances.

However, Kurt Warner stands in the pocket and delivers in the face of pressure, which has left him playing with a lot of nicks and dings, and a couple injuries, including a thumb which had a huge affect on his performance for a couple years.

Super Bowl 36 proved to me how tough Kurt Warner is. The Patriots beat him up and he kept coming and coming and coming and if the Patriots don't get that last drive the Rams win in OT. Warner is a first ballot hall of famer.
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[milkman]

Originally Posted by Pioli Zombie

Super Bowl 36 proved to me how tough Kurt Warner is. The Patriots beat him up and he kept coming and coming and coming and if the Patriots don't get that last drive the Rams win in OT. Warner is a first ballot hall of famer.
Posted via Mobile Device

You know, I hate the whole "culture" thing that has been coming up in changing a team's fortunes in the last few years, but the fact is, as Colin Cowherd said on his show, Warner has changed the culture of two moribund franchises.

If he doesn't get into the HoF on the first ballot, there needs to be an investigation.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by milkman

You know, I hate the whole "culture" thing that has been coming up in changing a team's fortunes in the last few years, but the fact is, as Colin Cowherd said on his show, Warner has changed the culture of two moribund franchises.

If he doesn't get into the HoF on the first ballot, there needs to be an investigation.

Yea, the last 2 years should have printed his ticket. There is no reasonable way to deny it.

Is there an undafted QB currently in the HOF?

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

Yea, the last 2 years should have printed his ticket. There is no reasonable way to deny it.

Is there an undafted QB currently in the HOF?

Don't know.

Otto Graham, maybe.

Bart Starr was a 17th round selection.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by milkman

Don't know.

Otto Graham, maybe.

Bart Starr was a 17th round selection.

I thought about that after I posted the question. It's hard to compare old school to now with all the draft rounds there used to be. Of course there were fewer teams back then so there are more players taken each round now and fewer each round back then.

Then you have the issue of there being the AFL and NFL both drafting players for 10 or so years.

I would say modern era there probably isn't an UDFA QB in the HOF.

[Pioli Zombie]

Hootie thinks Bart Starr was just a game manager.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by Hootie

I enjoy your commentary but lets face the facts...

At least I back up my stance on subjects...

At least I don't dedicate posts like the one you just made to push my agenda...

Have you said ANYTHING intelligent in this entire thread?

I think your stance is this...

"Brady is clutch, Peyton Manning chokes."

Yet you provide no insight to your opinion...

Wow...thanks for your contributions!

What's to argue, the facts are what they are. Most everyone on here discussing them are well acquainted with each and every one of them. And all we can do with them at this point is bicker over which facts is more important than other facts.

I watched each and every moment of both player's careers in the playoffs and have made my assessment. Until NEW facts, previously unearthed and outside those observations, come to light, all we're doing is saying 'these fact prove X more definitively than thoser facts prove Y.' And all that is, is you [royal you] own personal hierarchy or the relative gravity of facts.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

So much of what a QB is goes to the system they are in and the talent around them.

Look at Kurt Warner. Great, horrible, great again. Remember, he was cut in St. Louis and bombed in NY. He didn't even start an NFL game at all until he was 28 years old. And, in 2000, Trent Green had a higher passer rating with the same talent. (Green was the backup and played 7 games).

And, now, he is a 'sure' HOF'er.

Brady went from 'game manager' in the fans' eyes to elite QB, and now back to game manager.

The key is a good offense, time in the offense and comfort level in the offense, and surrounding talent.

[ChiefsCountry]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

Is there an undafted QB currently in the HOF?

Warren Moon

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

Warren Moon

Oh yea, went to Canada first. Thanks.