Chiefs Jovan Belcher, a gem found in the rough ? - Page 7

royr17 · 02-10-2011, 05:18 PM

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/nfl/kc/?r=1

ESPN.com's Bill Williamson and Scouts Inc.'s Matt Williamson believe the Chiefs have found a "gem" in ILB Jovan Belcher.

Belcher was primarily a special teamer as an undrafted rookie in 2009. He graduated to full-time starter in 2010, racking up 84 tackles. "He's a heavier guy who is a good banger in the 3-4 defense," Matt Williamson said. "He seems like a hard-nosed guy who has made the best of opportunity." Expect Belcher to remain in the same role next season.

DJ's left nut · 02-11-2011, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

DJ and Belcher aren't even closely related in terms of talent, quickness or instinct.

Nor are they close in terms of drive or attitude.

It's production that counts and with Belcher's makeup, if he can get to 80% of what DJ is physically, he could be just as good a player. If DJ would play with 80% the ferocity or intensity that Belcher plays with, he'd be a perennial All-Pro.

DJ is a much more explosive, dynamic, playmaker of a linebacker. However, he doesn't bring that hard-nosed tenacity you'd like to see from an ILB and he doesn't like to go into tight spaces and get nasty. In that sense, Belcher compliments him perfectly.

They're much different players who serve significantly different roles. All things considered, there's no reason Belcher can't be just as good at his job as Johnson is at his.

**DaneMcCloud** · 02-11-2011, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

It's production that counts and with Belcher's makeup, if he can get to 80% of what DJ is physically, he could be just as good a player.

And there's the rub.

Saccopoo · 02-11-2011, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

Heaven forbid I want to upgrade one of our weak links on our defense.

Jesus...

Belcher has a very solid season as a starter, really filled the running lanes well, and knocked the piss out of people when he got there. That's exactly what you want out of your MLB in a 3-4.

But yet, you want to "upgrade" that as you perceive it as a weak link...

Have you seen the wide receiver position or the offensive line? How about finding a strong safety that can actually cover someone, something, anything in the passing game?

People are still blathering on about Albert and that he'll eventually "get it" or that Berry's inability to have any semblance of a pass defense gets chalked up to "he's a rookie and learning...give him time" but a guy like Belcher has a solid season and people around here want him replaced because the Chiefs have him listed at 228 lbs. and they think that's too light and that's the only thing that they can see.

Oh...that's right...it's the Casey Wiegmann Double Ignorant Observational Case Study. Well, Wiegmann is only 285 lbs. and he's in his 30's. That mean he's got to suck, right? Replace him! What? Belcher is listed at 228?! He's got to suck, right? Replace him! I don't care what they do on the field...he doesn't fit the scheme as I see it on paper. Replace him!

Belcher is solid.

milkman · 02-11-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saccopoo

Jesus...

Belcher has a very solid season as a starter, really filled the running lanes well, and knocked the piss out of people when he got there. That's exactly what you want out of your MLB in a 3-4.

But yet, you want to "upgrade" that as you perceive it as a weak link...

Have you seen the wide receiver position or the offensive line? How about finding a strong safety that can actually cover someone, something, anything in the passing game?

People are still blathering on about Albert and that he'll eventually "get it" or that Berry's inability to have any semblance of a pass defense gets chalked up to "he's a rookie and learning...give him time" but a guy like Belcher has a solid season and people around here want him replaced because the Chiefs have him listed at 228 lbs. and they think that's too light and that's the only thing that they can see.

Oh...that's right...it's the Casey Wiegmann Double Ignorant Observational Case Study. Well, Wiegmann is only 285 lbs. and he's in his 30's. That mean he's got to suck, right? Replace him! What? Belcher is listed at 228?! He's got to suck, right? Replace him! I don't care what they do on the field...he doesn't fit the scheme as I see it on paper. Replace him!

Belcher is solid.

Good God, you are a ****ing moron.

ToxSocks · 02-11-2011, 11:11 AM

You had me here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saccopoo

Jesus...

Belcher has a very solid season as a starter, really filled the running lanes well, and knocked the piss out of people when he got there. That's exactly what you want out of your MLB in a 3-4.

But then you lost me here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saccopoo

But yet, you want to "upgrade" that as you perceive it as a weak link...

Have you seen the wide receiver position or the offensive line? How about finding a strong safety that can actually cover someone, something, anything in the passing game?

People are still blathering on about Albert and that he'll eventually "get it" or that Berry's inability to have any semblance of a pass defense gets chalked up to "he's a rookie and learning...give him time" but a guy like Belcher has a solid season and people around here want him replaced because the Chiefs have him listed at 228 lbs. and they think that's too light and that's the only thing that they can see.

Oh...that's right...it's the Casey Wiegmann Double Ignorant Observational Case Study. Well, Wiegmann is only 285 lbs. and he's in his 30's. That mean he's got to suck, right? Replace him! What? Belcher is listed at 228?! He's got to suck, right? Replace him! I don't care what they do on the field...he doesn't fit the scheme as I see it on paper. Replace him!

Belcher is solid.

DJ's left nut · 02-11-2011, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

And there's the rub.

Give him 1 more season.

With an NFL strength and conditioning program, I think he can get there. He'll obviously never have the lateral quickness or the explosiveness (though I wouldn't underestimate him too much, he's no slug out there). But I think he's capable of getting just a bit quicker, just a bit stronger and just a bit more agile. DJ's maxed out physically, he's been in the league awhile now. Belcher is just now seeing the advantages of being a full-time football player and having access to some of the best trainers in the world.

You can see it in his body already, he's developed a lot since college. At 23, he still has another couple of years where he can increase his core strength before he tops out.

Again - considering their respective roles, I absolutely believe that Belcher can be as good a Ted backer as Johnson is a Mac backer.

**the Talking Can** · 02-11-2011, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Nor are they close in terms of drive or attitude.

It's production that counts and with Belcher's makeup, if he can get to 80% of what DJ is physically, he could be just as good a player. If DJ would play with 80% the ferocity or intensity that Belcher plays with, he'd be a perennial All-Pro.

DJ is a much more explosive, dynamic, playmaker of a linebacker. However, he doesn't bring that hard-nosed tenacity you'd like to see from an ILB and he doesn't like to go into tight spaces and get nasty. In that sense, Belcher compliments him perfectly.

They're much different players who serve significantly different roles. All things considered, there's no reason Belcher can't be just as good at his job as Johnson is at his.

getting a NT is way more important than finding a replacement for Belcher...i thought the guy played well and hit like a mother %$#!@ regardless of his weight...i expect him to be even better next year...

TheGuardian · 02-11-2011, 12:08 PM

Jovan is a second year guy that just started his first season.

He had 84 tackles, a sack, a forced fumble, and 3 tackles for a loss.

Yet people want to talk about drafting a guy to upgrade? Pretty stupid.

Jovan is a hard worker, plays with a lot of desire and actually is more athletic than people are letting on here. The "how much he weighs" thing, well I owned asses in that discussion so that's done. As far as the rest? He's going to get another year to start, and he should only get better. He did a great job of doing the dirty work inside for a guy in his first year starting. Our run defense improved by leaps and bounds after he and DJ were inserted into the starting lineup this season. He's a part of that.

**the Talking Can** · 02-11-2011, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saccopoo

Berry's inability to have any semblance of a pass defense gets chalked up to "he's a rookie and learning...give him time"

times like this I have to assume you were hanging out with blowmo during the games....

**the Talking Can** · 02-11-2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuardian

Jovan is a second year guy that just started his first season.

He had 84 tackles, a sack, a forced fumble, and 3 tackles for a loss.

Yet people want to talk about drafting a guy to upgrade? Pretty stupid.

Jovan is a hard worker, plays with a lot of desire and actually is more athletic than people are letting on here. The "how much he weighs" thing, well I owned asses in that discussion so that's done. As far as the rest? He's going to get another year to start, and he should only get better. He did a great job of doing the dirty work inside for a guy in his first year starting. Our run defense improved by leaps and bounds after he and DJ were inserted into the starting lineup this season. He's a part of that.

can't you just see fake football guy falling head over ass down a long flight of stairs, then popping up and yelling to hysterically laughing crowd that he just "Owned That Stair Case's Ass!"

**DaneMcCloud** · 02-11-2011, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuardian

Jovan is a second year guy that just started his first season.

He had 84 tackles, a sack, a forced fumble, and 3 tackles for a loss.

Yet people want to talk about drafting a guy to upgrade? Pretty stupid.

Jovan is a hard worker, plays with a lot of desire and actually is more athletic than people are letting on here. The "how much he weighs" thing, well I owned asses in that discussion so that's done. As far as the rest? He's going to get another year to start, and he should only get better. He did a great job of doing the dirty work inside for a guy in his first year starting. Our run defense improved by leaps and bounds after he and DJ were inserted into the starting lineup this season. He's a part of that.

Look, I'm not stating that the guy in any sucks or is undeserving of a role on the team. But let's look at facts: The Chiefs were gashed in the run game by the Raiders and even the Broncos. They lost several games by 20 points or more and the interior of the defense could certainly use an upgrade. And quite honestly, I do not see a single NT that is going to magically transform the middle of the defense. Help? Sure. But as far as anyone knows, there are no Raji's or Ngata's available this year in the draft or free agency.

Hopefully, Belcher can continue to improve and there's no doubt that he made a leap from year one to year two. But the position needs an upgrade and whether it's him that makes the leap or a free agent, I don't really care.

**morphius** · 02-11-2011, 12:26 PM

It seemed a lot of time he was more interested in taking on the blocker than filling the gapping hole, and then couldn't get off the block and the RB would zoom right on by for a big chunk.

DJ's left nut · 02-11-2011, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Look, I'm not stating that the guy in any sucks or is undeserving of a role on the team. But let's look at facts: The Chiefs were gashed in the run game by the Raiders and even the Broncos. They lost several games by 20 points or more and the interior of the defense could certainly use an upgrade. And quite honestly, I do not see a single NT that is going to magically transform the middle of the defense. Help? Sure. But as far as anyone knows, there are no Raji's or Ngata's available this year in the draft or free agency.

Hopefully, Belcher can continue to improve and there's no doubt that he made a leap from year one to year two. But the position needs an upgrade and whether it's him that makes the leap or a free agent, I don't really care.

Do you think Ray Lewis as our TLB solves those problems? After watching what happened to the guy when Shields and Waters got to roam free, I don't.

Failings in the running game in a 3-4 defense rest heavily with your down lineman, VERY heavily.

Unless you see a MLB out there that would be good enough to overcome the failings of our DTs, why make a move just for the sake of making a move? Even if it's a marginal upgrade, is that worth the cost? Or is it worth losing out on the opporunity to see what Belcher could do?

If we had a good interior line last season and we didn't see Belcher playing with the leverage and attitude to make himself a very good run-stopper, perhaps I'd be on board. But we saw plenty of reasons that the rush defense could've been poor that have nothing to do with Belcher and we saw plenty of things from Belcher to suggest he could be a very good run stopper.

**DaneMcCloud** · 02-11-2011, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphius

It seemed a lot of time he was more interested in taking on the blocker than filling the gapping hole, and then couldn't get off the block and the RB would zoom right on by for a big chunk.

This is what I saw as well, which seems to be in direct contradiction to what people are arguing.

DJ's left nut · 02-11-2011, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphius

It seemed a lot of time he was more interested in taking on the blocker than filling the gapping hole, and then couldn't get off the block and the RB would zoom right on by for a big chunk.

Perhaps that the way the defense was designed. Ordinarily your NT should've occupied that blocker (or maybe your 5-tech). If he doesn't, it's up to the next man in the scheme to occupy the blocker and allow a free player to make the tackle.

Let's not act like it's easy for a linebacker to just throw off a guard here. Like I said, even Lewis gets owned fairly often when he's asked to do that. If the blocker is coming through, it's probably a pretty smart idea for Belcher to take out the blocker and let the guys behind him clean up the mess. At that point, he's mitigating the damages.

The alternative is that he tries to go around him or ignore him altogether, in the process he gets routed out of the play and the blocker is still there to take out the 2nd level and bust the back for an even bigger run.

Again, in our defense, it all comes down to the fact that we don't have a NT. This has been a huge failure by Pioli.

02-10-2011, 05:18 PM
royr17 MVP Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lovin my kids Casino cash: $-1641324	Jovan Belcher, a gem found in the rough ? http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/nfl/kc/?r=1 ESPN.com's Bill Williamson and Scouts Inc.'s Matt Williamson believe the Chiefs have found a "gem" in ILB Jovan Belcher. Belcher was primarily a special teamer as an undrafted rookie in 2009. He graduated to full-time starter in 2010, racking up 84 tackles. "He's a heavier guy who is a good banger in the 3-4 defense," Matt Williamson said. "He seems like a hard-nosed guy who has made the best of opportunity." Expect Belcher to remain in the same role next season.
Posts: 6,243

02-11-2011, 12:08 PM	#98
TheGuardian MVP Join Date: Mar 2009 Casino cash: $6305299	Jovan is a second year guy that just started his first season. He had 84 tackles, a sack, a forced fumble, and 3 tackles for a loss. Yet people want to talk about drafting a guy to upgrade? Pretty stupid. Jovan is a hard worker, plays with a lot of desire and actually is more athletic than people are letting on here. The "how much he weighs" thing, well I owned asses in that discussion so that's done. As far as the rest? He's going to get another year to start, and he should only get better. He did a great job of doing the dirty work inside for a guy in his first year starting. Our run defense improved by leaps and bounds after he and DJ were inserted into the starting lineup this season. He's a part of that.
Posts: 9,564

02-11-2011, 12:26 PM	#102
morphius World's finest morphius Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $5735027	It seemed a lot of time he was more interested in taking on the blocker than filling the gapping hole, and then couldn't get off the block and the RB would zoom right on by for a big chunk.
Posts: 26,023