Chiefs Haley versus McDaniels

SenselessChiefsFan · 11-30-2011, 08:42 AM

For those that think I love Cassel, I don't. I just think that Haley isn't nearly the offensive coordinator that McDaniels is. I think the biggest reason that many on here think that Orton is better is because he had two years with McDaniels while the Chiefs had Haley, then Weis, and now Haley again.

Orton and Cassel have both struggled this year.

Haley had a great offense in Arizona with Kurt Warner. McDaniels had a great offense with Tom Brady, but he also has had good offenses with Kyle Orton and Matt Cassel....ahem.... Kyle Orton and Matt Cassel.

In 2007, Haley's first as a offensive coordinator, there is no comparison. McDaniels had a record setting offense at the top of the league. Haley had the 12th best offense. Winner: McDaniels. Haley might get some credit here since he was in his first year with the Cardinals. But, The Pats set the world on fire and set records and were just so much better, that you have to give the nod to McDaniels.

In 2008, Haley had the fourth rated offense. He had Kurt Warner, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, and Breaston. Granted, the running backs weren't great. Edgerin James wasn't quite what he once was and they had Tim Hightower.

In 2008, McDaniels had the fifth rated offense. He had Matt Cassel, Randy Moss and Wes Welker. And, believe it or not, the running backs in NE were even MORE underwhelming. Lamont Jordon, Maroney, Sammy Morris.

2008 edge: Despite Arizona ranking one spot higher, it would be foolish not to notice the distinct advantage in talent around Haley. so the edge goes to McDaniels.

2009- Daniels had the 15th best offense. He had Orton, Marshall and Royal. He didn't have much of a running threat.

In 2009, Haley had the 25th best offense. He had Matt Cassel, D-Bowe, and Charles. Yeah, he didn't give Charles a ton of time until the end of the season. Who's fault is that? Who is the coach that saw JC on the field every day and still decided to play LJ?

In 2010, Haley had Weis as offensive coordinator. The Chiefs were 12th in offense. The Broncos were 13th. The Chiefs had better offensive talent. Jones was still playing well last year, JC was out of this world. They had D-Bowe and Moeaki as well. Luckily, Haley had Weis to know how to use the talent. With Weis, they managed to be one spot higher than the Broncos.

McDaniels had Orton, B LLoyd, Eddie Royal. Yet, he managed to get to the 13th ranking.

2011. Finally, a year that Haley can probably claim as better than McDaniels. The Chiefs are 27th in offense. The Rams are 29th.

Now, lets look at talent. Matt Cassel versus Sam Bradford. Bradford is the obvious answer. However, a second year guy going into a new system, and an offseason with no training camp. Again, Bradford is the better guy, but overall situation? Haley might have the better overall situation. Cassel and even Palko had been with the Chiefs for a full year.

Both McDaniels and Haley have had to have two games played with their backup QB.

Jackson is clearly superior to anything that the Chiefs have in the backfield since JC went down.

However, look at the talent on the outside and you will see the Chiefs have Bowe, Breaston and Baldwin..... heck, even McCluster would probably be one of the Rams top two WR's. Not kidding. They have Brandon Lloyd and Brandon Gibson. That is their top two WR's.

So, even conceding that they have the best QB and RB in St. Louis, you look at the fact that McDaniels came to a brand new team without an offseason and is only 2 spots worse than the team that Haley has been building for three years.

McDaniels was a crappy personnel guy. I concede that fact every day of the week. But, when it comes down to x's and o's. He outshines Haley by a huge margin.

I think Haley may be the better overall head coach, but from a purely offensive creativity and coordination standpoint. Haley is far inferior to McDaniels.

And any comparison between Orton and Cassel has to be based in this reality.

And, please understand, I am not a huge Cassel fan. I want him gone. But, this idea that Orton is an upgrade is fools gold. They are both mediocre QB's that have looked good under McDaniels. And, in Cassel's case, at least decent under Weis.

Deberg_1990 · 11-30-2011, 08:47 AM

Im just not a big believer in Haley anymore. His Win/loss record speaks for itself, which is about on par with Herm Edwards Chiefs. He might have some upside, but i dont see a whole lot of it. 10 wins is about the most hes capable of. At times his teams look and play unprepared, and his offense goes dormant for 3 quarters only to come alive towards the end of the game. We have seen this for 3 seasons now.

TRR · 11-30-2011, 08:48 AM

So the answer is that when McDaniels has a better offense, it is because he is the better coach. When Haley has the better offense, it is because he has/had more talent.
Posted via Mobile Device

FAX · 11-30-2011, 08:49 AM

This situation seems to have affected you in some way, Mr. SensibleChiefsfan.

Might I suggest that you consider developing a side-interest and stepping away from football for awhile? Like, say ... bowling, maybe? Bowling can be fun. It's pretty good exercise and they even have automatic scoring systems at most bowling alleys. Bowling groupies are cool, too ... even though they sometimes smell like socks. Then, after you've bowled a few games, picked up a bowling groupie for the night, and turned in your shoes, you can enjoy a burger and coke at the arcade.

FAX

FloridaMan88 · 11-30-2011, 08:53 AM

McDaniels offenses in Denver put up yardage, but I don't think they were necessarily a "great" offense. They were ranked 20th in points scored in 2009 and 19th in points scored in 2010.

SenselessChiefsFan · 11-30-2011, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRR

So the answer is that when McDaniels has a better offense, it is because he is the better coach. When Haley has the better offense, it is because he has/had more talent.
Posted via Mobile Device

Other than this year, and 2007, can you really argue against the fact that Haley has more talent?

SenselessChiefsFan · 11-30-2011, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

This situation seems to have affected you in some way, Mr. SensibleChiefsfan.

Might I suggest that you consider developing a side-interest and stepping away from football for awhile? Like, say ... bowling, maybe? Bowling can be fun. It's pretty good exercise and they even have automatic scoring systems at most bowling alleys. Bowling groupies are cool, too ... even though they sometimes smell like socks. Then, after you've bowled a few games, picked up a bowling groupie for the night, and turned in your shoes, you can enjoy a burger and coke at the arcade.

FAX

Bowling sounds nice.

But, I suppose I should actually get to work. Either way, I need to get off this board...

Mile High Mania · 11-30-2011, 09:27 AM

McDaniels would be a good OC with your team, but not a HC... therefore, you should hire him to replace Haley.

milkman · 11-30-2011, 09:28 AM

Haley believes that an offense has to be able to run effectively out of the pro set to win championships.

McDumbass uses more spread to effectively mask the QB's deficiencies as a pro style QB.

Every SB has been won by teams, and QBs, that can run effectively out of the pro set.

That is the primary reason that most pro personnel people are looking at QBs and trying to figure out of they have what takes to learn the mechanics of the QB position out of the pro set.

Terribilis · 11-30-2011, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

This situation seems to have affected you in some way, Mr. SensibleChiefsfan.

Might I suggest that you consider developing a side-interest and stepping away from football for awhile? Like, say ... bowling, maybe? Bowling can be fun. It's pretty good exercise and they even have automatic scoring systems at most bowling alleys. Bowling groupies are cool, too ... even though they sometimes smell like socks. Then, after you've bowled a few games, picked up a bowling groupie for the night, and turned in your shoes, you can enjoy a burger and coke at the arcade.

FAX

that sounds very pleasant actually.

**the Talking Can** · 11-30-2011, 10:18 AM

they're all worthless pieces of shit and not worth writing 15 words about, unless they're curse words...

BoneKrusher · 11-30-2011, 10:19 AM

i'd Prefer Josh McDaniels if it doesn't take 5 games for his team to score a TD.

Terribilis · 11-30-2011, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

Haley believes that an offense has to be able to run effectively out of the pro set to win championships.

McDumbass uses more spread to effectively mask the QB's deficiencies as a pro style QB.

Every SB has been won by teams, and QBs, that can run effectively out of the pro set.

That is the primary reason that most pro personnel people are looking at QBs and trying to figure out of they have what takes to learn the mechanics of the QB position out of the pro set.

Do you believe an effective pro set QB/ offense is the only way to win a superbowl? just curious.

milkman · 11-30-2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terribilis

Do you believe an effective pro set QB/ offense is the only way to win a superbowl? just curious.

5 years ago I would have answered with a definitive yes.

However, with the rules set the way they are now, I am no longer certain that is the case.

Terribilis · 11-30-2011, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

5 years ago I would have answered with a definitive yes.

However, with the rules set the way they are now, I am no longer certain that is the case.

That's kind of where I am at as well.

11-30-2011, 08:42 AM
SenselessChiefsFan MVP Join Date: Nov 2008 Casino cash: $10005450	Haley versus McDaniels For those that think I love Cassel, I don't. I just think that Haley isn't nearly the offensive coordinator that McDaniels is. I think the biggest reason that many on here think that Orton is better is because he had two years with McDaniels while the Chiefs had Haley, then Weis, and now Haley again. Orton and Cassel have both struggled this year. Haley had a great offense in Arizona with Kurt Warner. McDaniels had a great offense with Tom Brady, but he also has had good offenses with Kyle Orton and Matt Cassel....ahem.... Kyle Orton and Matt Cassel. In 2007, Haley's first as a offensive coordinator, there is no comparison. McDaniels had a record setting offense at the top of the league. Haley had the 12th best offense. Winner: McDaniels. Haley might get some credit here since he was in his first year with the Cardinals. But, The Pats set the world on fire and set records and were just so much better, that you have to give the nod to McDaniels. In 2008, Haley had the fourth rated offense. He had Kurt Warner, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, and Breaston. Granted, the running backs weren't great. Edgerin James wasn't quite what he once was and they had Tim Hightower. In 2008, McDaniels had the fifth rated offense. He had Matt Cassel, Randy Moss and Wes Welker. And, believe it or not, the running backs in NE were even MORE underwhelming. Lamont Jordon, Maroney, Sammy Morris. 2008 edge: Despite Arizona ranking one spot higher, it would be foolish not to notice the distinct advantage in talent around Haley. so the edge goes to McDaniels. 2009- Daniels had the 15th best offense. He had Orton, Marshall and Royal. He didn't have much of a running threat. In 2009, Haley had the 25th best offense. He had Matt Cassel, D-Bowe, and Charles. Yeah, he didn't give Charles a ton of time until the end of the season. Who's fault is that? Who is the coach that saw JC on the field every day and still decided to play LJ? In 2010, Haley had Weis as offensive coordinator. The Chiefs were 12th in offense. The Broncos were 13th. The Chiefs had better offensive talent. Jones was still playing well last year, JC was out of this world. They had D-Bowe and Moeaki as well. Luckily, Haley had Weis to know how to use the talent. With Weis, they managed to be one spot higher than the Broncos. McDaniels had Orton, B LLoyd, Eddie Royal. Yet, he managed to get to the 13th ranking. 2011. Finally, a year that Haley can probably claim as better than McDaniels. The Chiefs are 27th in offense. The Rams are 29th. Now, lets look at talent. Matt Cassel versus Sam Bradford. Bradford is the obvious answer. However, a second year guy going into a new system, and an offseason with no training camp. Again, Bradford is the better guy, but overall situation? Haley might have the better overall situation. Cassel and even Palko had been with the Chiefs for a full year. Both McDaniels and Haley have had to have two games played with their backup QB. Jackson is clearly superior to anything that the Chiefs have in the backfield since JC went down. However, look at the talent on the outside and you will see the Chiefs have Bowe, Breaston and Baldwin..... heck, even McCluster would probably be one of the Rams top two WR's. Not kidding. They have Brandon Lloyd and Brandon Gibson. That is their top two WR's. So, even conceding that they have the best QB and RB in St. Louis, you look at the fact that McDaniels came to a brand new team without an offseason and is only 2 spots worse than the team that Haley has been building for three years. McDaniels was a crappy personnel guy. I concede that fact every day of the week. But, when it comes down to x's and o's. He outshines Haley by a huge margin. I think Haley may be the better overall head coach, but from a purely offensive creativity and coordination standpoint. Haley is far inferior to McDaniels. And any comparison between Orton and Cassel has to be based in this reality. And, please understand, I am not a huge Cassel fan. I want him gone. But, this idea that Orton is an upgrade is fools gold. They are both mediocre QB's that have looked good under McDaniels. And, in Cassel's case, at least decent under Weis.
Posts: 5,540

11-30-2011, 08:47 AM	#2
Deberg_1990 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Antonio Tx. Casino cash: $124454	Im just not a big believer in Haley anymore. His Win/loss record speaks for itself, which is about on par with Herm Edwards Chiefs. He might have some upside, but i dont see a whole lot of it. 10 wins is about the most hes capable of. At times his teams look and play unprepared, and his offense goes dormant for 3 quarters only to come alive towards the end of the game. We have seen this for 3 seasons now.
Posts: 68,654

11-30-2011, 08:48 AM	#3
TRR The Priest and I Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: CO Casino cash: $9420185	So the answer is that when McDaniels has a better offense, it is because he is the better coach. When Haley has the better offense, it is because he has/had more talent. Posted via Mobile Device
Posts: 7,370

11-30-2011, 08:49 AM	#4
FAX testing ... 1, 2, 3 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tennessee Casino cash: $6753759	This situation seems to have affected you in some way, Mr. SensibleChiefsfan. Might I suggest that you consider developing a side-interest and stepping away from football for awhile? Like, say ... bowling, maybe? Bowling can be fun. It's pretty good exercise and they even have automatic scoring systems at most bowling alleys. Bowling groupies are cool, too ... even though they sometimes smell like socks. Then, after you've bowled a few games, picked up a bowling groupie for the night, and turned in your shoes, you can enjoy a burger and coke at the arcade. FAX
Posts: 44,492

11-30-2011, 08:53 AM	#5
FloridaMan88 Mahomes: We Are All Witnesses Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami, FL Casino cash: $-727094	McDaniels offenses in Denver put up yardage, but I don't think they were necessarily a "great" offense. They were ranked 20th in points scored in 2009 and 19th in points scored in 2010.
Posts: 50,206

11-30-2011, 09:27 AM	#8
Mile High Mania #triggering Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Tejas Casino cash: $927229	McDaniels would be a good OC with your team, but not a HC... therefore, you should hire him to replace Haley. __________________
Posts: 30,910

11-30-2011, 09:28 AM	#9
milkman Dumbass! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Leading the Marty bashing Casino cash: $10029395	Haley believes that an offense has to be able to run effectively out of the pro set to win championships. McDumbass uses more spread to effectively mask the QB's deficiencies as a pro style QB. Every SB has been won by teams, and QBs, that can run effectively out of the pro set. That is the primary reason that most pro personnel people are looking at QBs and trying to figure out of they have what takes to learn the mechanics of the QB position out of the pro set. __________________
Posts: 70,769

11-30-2011, 10:18 AM	#11
the Talking Can Supporter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: street Casino cash: $9182208	they're all worthless pieces of shit and not worth writing 15 words about, unless they're curse words... __________________ Clark Hunt: "Thank god for the Dominican pool boy"
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11-30-2011, 10:19 AM	#12
BoneKrusher That's Right Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Bluefield, Virginia Casino cash: $9976645	i'd Prefer Josh McDaniels if it doesn't take 5 games for his team to score a TD. __________________ "MaHomes/MaAuto"
Posts: 7,333