Chiefs Kelce cementing his HOF status - Page 12

RunKC · 12-01-2019, 11:02 AM

Fastest TE in history to get 450 receptions and 6,000 yards. Needs 167 more to get 1,000 yards and become the first TE in history to get 1,000 receiving yards in 4 straight years.

chiefzilla1501 · 10-04-2022, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdolfOliverBush

TG would be a Dan Marino, although Marino made it to a Super Bowl.

Thats more in line with what I’ve been saying. Exceptionally talented player but doesn’t remotely close to the intangibles of a Montana or Brady (or obviously mahomes, who has the intangibles plus athletic talent). Great for the eyeball test but just doesn’t measure up among the best of the best.

DJ's left nut · 10-04-2022, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudasRising20

Moses Malone vs. Karl Malone would be a more apt comparison. The former also won a ring and had a higher peak, albeit he lacked the career numbers and durability that Karl Malone had.

Moses Malone, even at his apex, wasn't doing things that hadn't been done before.

Kelce is.

This is a dude that had a legitimate shot at leading the NFL in receiving yards as a tight end (we sat him for game 16, IIRC). A guy who's setting benchmarks for CAREER thresholds at the same time he's doing it in consecutive seasons.

We've never seen a tight end hit these kind of height with this kind of sustainability. This really is unparalleled stuff.

DJ's left nut · 10-04-2022, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Thats more in line with what I’ve been saying. Exceptionally talented player but doesn’t remotely close to the intangibles of a Montana or Brady (or obviously mahomes, who has the intangibles plus athletic talent). Great for the eyeball test but just doesn’t measure up among the best of the best.

Wait - now Dan Marino 'doesn't measure up among the best of the best...'?

I truly don't know what we're doing anymore. This has gone beyond tragedy into farce.

KChiefs1 · 10-04-2022, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdolfOliverBush

I question whether anyone who says Gonzalez is better than Kelce ever watched Gonzalez play, other than highlight videos.

Gonzalez is Karl Malone. Kelce is Jordan.

Gonzalez is Wilt Chamberlain & Kelce is Jordan.

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O.city · 10-04-2022, 10:44 AM

Dan Marino is the best thrower of the football in the history of the league. Every legit QB evaluator in the know brings up Marino when they talk about all timers.

"Intangibles"

What.....what?

chiefzilla1501 · 10-04-2022, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Wait - now Dan Marino 'doesn't measure up among the best of the best...'?

I truly don't know what we're doing anymore. This has gone beyond tragedy into farce.

If we’re talking GOAT I am not putting him in the same conversation as Brady. And ultimately not with mahomes. No.

chiefzilla1501 · 10-04-2022, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

Dan Marino is the best thrower of the football in the history of the league. Every legit QB evaluator in the know brings up Marino when they talk about all timers.

"Intangibles"

What.....what?

And as I’ve said over and over again, pure athletic talent is not how you measure the best of the best of the best. It puts you up there but it is the intangibles that put you over the top. Marino was exceptionally better at every physical dimension over Brady. Who’s picking Marino over Brady?

Megatron96 · 10-04-2022, 10:50 AM

TG's QBs over his KC career:

Grbac/Gannon
Green
Huard
Croyle

Green had just three 4000+yd seasons and just three seasons throwing for more than 20 TDs, all with TG. And he was by far the best of the bunch during TG's time in KC.

Of course it was a different era, and TG was not the focus of the offense the way TK has been since 2013.

Another way to look at the question is how good would prime TG be now? Would he still be one of the best TEs in 2022? i think he would be. In a decent offense with a good QB he'd still be a top-5 TE, imo. Not as productive as TK or Kittle, but probably at least as good as Andrews if not better.

**dirk digler** · 10-04-2022, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Moses Malone, even at his apex, wasn't doing things that hadn't been done before.

Kelce is.

This is a dude that had a legitimate shot at leading the NFL in receiving yards as a tight end (we sat him for game 16, IIRC). A guy who's setting benchmarks for CAREER thresholds at the same time he's doing it in consecutive seasons.

We've never seen a tight end hit these kind of height with this kind of sustainability. This really is unparalleled stuff.

TG lead the league in receptions in 2004 and was 7th in yds that year. In an era that didn't throw near like they do today.

**dirk digler** · 10-04-2022, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96

TG's QBs over his KC career:

Grbac/Gannon
Green
Huard
Croyle

Green had just three 4000+yd seasons and just three seasons throwing for more than 20 TDs, all with TG. And he was by far the best of the bunch during TG's time in KC.

Of course it was a different era, and TG was not the focus of the offense the way TK has been since 2013.

Another way to look at the question is how good would prime TG be now? Would he still be one of the best TEs in 2022? i think he would be. In a decent offense with a good QB he'd still be a top-5 TE, imo. Not as productive as TK or Kittle, but probably at least as good as Andrews if not better.

If TG was playing with Mahomes in his prime, he would put up the same amount of catches, less yds but more TD's than TK. With the struggles we have on the goal line, TG would solve those problems.

And before anyone says well TG wouldn't get the targets\catches because Hill was on this team, just remember 35 yd TG had over 80 catches a year in Atlanta playing with Julio Jones and Roddy White.

Gary Cooper · 10-04-2022, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I think it's an excellent example of peak vs. duration, though.

Malone, statistically, exceeds the raw counting stats of Jordan. But the rate stats clearly favor Jordan. The question of peak vs. duration also reflects on the respective post-season resumes of the party.

No analogue is going to be completely perfect but man, I think that's a really good one. Jordan is the GOAT among all players - air reserved for Jerry Rice in the NFL, IMO. But Malone is likely a top 10-15 guy in his own right due to duration.

I mean if you want to take post-season accolades out of the equation and just compare them to TEs, would Kareem vs. Jordan suit you better?

I'm wondering how much basketball some of you watch. Kareem's postseason accomplishments are pretty damn good. I don't see Jordan as much better, especially if you count NCAA careers. Karl Malone is not a 10-15 all-time player. He's maybe top 20.

Back to football. Tony G is not a 10-15 all-time TE. He's top 5 at worst. He and Kelce both have a claim to best ever. There isn't a large gap between them, if any.

Postseason success is being overrated here. Nobody mentions the postseason when Barry Sanders or Dick Butkus get discussion as the greatest at their position. Why is it different here? RB or MLB are even more important than TE. Tight ends don't carry teams to Super Bowls. The Chiefs would still be a modern juggernaut if you swap Kelce and Gonzalez. Kelce isn't winning Super Bowls with Grbac/Green/Huard.

**dirk digler** · 10-04-2022, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudasRising20

Tight ends don't carry teams to Super Bowls. The Chiefs would still be a modern juggernaut if you swap Kelce and Gonzalez. Kelce isn't winning Super Bowls with Grbac/Green/Huard.

yep very true

DJ's left nut · 10-04-2022, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudasRising20

I'm wondering how much basketball some of you watch. Kareem's postseason accomplishments are pretty damn good. Karl Malone is not a 10-15 all-time player. He's maybe top 20. If anything my Karl Malone vs. Moses Malone comparison makes sense.

Back to football. Tony G is not a 10-15 all-time TE. He's top 5 at worst. He and Kelce both have a claim to best ever. There isn't a large gap between them, if any.

That's why I said you'd need to remove the post-season accolades to make the analogy work - Kareem has an outstanding post-season record. 6 rings and 2 (arguably 3?) Finals MVPs is more than "pretty damn good". People were trying to note that Kelce has a ring and a ton of post-season success around that Lombardi - TG has effectively NONE. I'm removing that from the calculus.

And again, while I disagree with you w/r/t Malone not being a top 10-15 player (I think his resume speaks for itself), I offered Kareem as an alternative for that very reason.

Because anyone who DOESN'T believe Abdul-Jabbar is a top 5 all time player probably needs to brush up on their history a bit. That dude was out there snatching souls in Milwaukee. And while most people remember him for his time in LA, those 5 years he spent with the Bucks were some of the most dominant years of all time as well.

So again - if you want to simply remove all discussion of the postseasons successes of TG/TK and focus on peak vs. duration, Abdul-Jabbar vs. Jordan really shouldn't be the kind of comparison that offends anyone.

Kareem detonated seemingly every meaningful counting stat there was to detonate but he didn't do it by having a sustained high peak - he did it by playing for 20 mostly healthy seasons. Jordan, OTOH, at his peak was simply better than anyone that had done it before or since.

**ChiTown** · 10-04-2022, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudasRising20

I'm wondering how much basketball some of you watch. Kareem's postseason accomplishments are pretty damn good. I don't see Jordan as much better, especially if you count NCAA careers. Karl Malone is not a 10-15 all-time player. He's maybe top 20.

Back to football. Tony G is not a 10-15 all-time TE. He's top 5 at worst. He and Kelce both have a claim to best ever. There isn't a large gap between them, if any.

Postseason success is being overrated here. Nobody mentions the postseason when Barry Sanders or Dick Butkus get mentioned as the possible greatest at their position. Why is it different here? RB or MLB are even more important than TE. Tight ends don't carry teams to Super Bowls. The Chiefs would still be a modern juggernaut if you swap Kelce and Gonzalez. Kelce isn't winning Super Bowls with Grbac/Green/Huard.

Agreed on that comment. Lynn Swann is living proof of that - 3 Pro Bowls in a 9 year career. 1st Team All Pro 1 time. Never had over 880 Yards Receiving in a season. But those Post Season catches and SB's got him into Canton.......

**ptlyon** · 10-04-2022, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiTown

Agreed on that comment. Lynn Swann is living proof of that - 3 Pro Bowls in a 9 year career. 1st Team All Pro 1 time. Never had over 880 Yards Receiving in a season. But those Post Season catches and SB's got him into Canton.......

I always thought it was due to his appearance in The Water Boy

12-01-2019, 11:02 AM
RunKC Andy Reid Supporter Join Date: Apr 2012 Casino cash: $-1490389	Kelce cementing his HOF status Fastest TE in history to get 450 receptions and 6,000 yards. Needs 167 more to get 1,000 yards and become the first TE in history to get 1,000 receiving yards in 4 straight years.
Posts: 52,123

10-04-2022, 10:44 AM	#170
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $-595936	Dan Marino is the best thrower of the football in the history of the league. Every legit QB evaluator in the know brings up Marino when they talk about all timers. "Intangibles" What.....what?
Posts: 84,186

10-04-2022, 10:50 AM	#173
Megatron96 Suupraa Geniuuusss Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: North Phoenix, AZ Casino cash: $-1809600	TG's QBs over his KC career: Grbac/Gannon Green Huard Croyle Green had just three 4000+yd seasons and just three seasons throwing for more than 20 TDs, all with TG. And he was by far the best of the bunch during TG's time in KC. Of course it was a different era, and TG was not the focus of the offense the way TK has been since 2013. Another way to look at the question is how good would prime TG be now? Would he still be one of the best TEs in 2022? i think he would be. In a decent offense with a good QB he'd still be a top-5 TE, imo. Not as productive as TK or Kittle, but probably at least as good as Andrews if not better. __________________ *“Some ideas are so stupid only intellectuals believe them.”*- George Orwell Steven "Spags" Spagnuolo is my Adopt-A-Chief!!!
Posts: 34,919