** OFFICIAL: "Do You Believe in God and an Afterlife?" Thread**

[Mr. Kotter]

Simple question.

I'm just curious how representative this place is, compared with mainstream America on the question. A few threads of late, just got me wondering....

Please feel free to discuss.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by tiptap

Tell me you can walk on water or rise from the dead and the "concept" exist. The same could be said for god. But the test of existence is there evidence for your position outside of words alone. For those who make their religious books absolute words are everything so it may be that those people fail to look outside the box. Truth doesn't exist in words. It may represent truths well but it is just as true that "If wishes were horses than poor men would ride" It is a harsh reality. And cooperation, sometimes helped along by religious thought, can make our existence easier and more rewarding. But it doesn't change the harsh reality that is exhibited in nature.

Imagination seemingly has no borders but if the sun were to explode or the earth gets hit by asteroids or even if a plague does in all humans imagination would cease to exist on this planet. As such it is dependent upon existence of the unit, the unit of man.

Well there you go. As the science books(that have words in them) you put your faith in keep constantly being re-written, proven wrong and corrected, I guess I'll keep putting my faith in a good book that hasn't changed for 4000 years. Any faith in man is obviuosly futile.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

I'll keep putting my faith in a good book that hasn't changed for 4000 years..

You think it hasn't changed?

[RJ]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

Agreed.

One of the most common attacks on organized churches, are on the excesses and hypocrisy of men. All men are imperfect, and fall short.

Faith and spirtuality should have much less to do with how OTHERS behave and what OTHERS thing, than with what YOU think...

Isn't it kinda of silly to allow the weaknesses of others to influence you so much in what YOU believe? It just strikes me as an adult version of "peer pressure".....

"Look at those hypocrites. Just goes to show they all must be kooks. And I'm no kook."

as:

"Look at those cool kids; they smoke. And the nerds, look at them--they don't smoke. And I'm no Nerd....."

I've read that about ten times and still have no idea what you're talking about. Do you really think grown up people make spiritual decisions the way 9th graders decide about smoking? Or am I missing a deeper point?

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

Agreed.

One of the most common attacks on organized churches, are on the excesses and hypocrisy of men. All men are imperfect, and fall short.
Faith and spirtuality should have much less to do with how OTHERS behave and what OTHERS thing, than with what YOU think...

Yes but as a whole many organized religious leaders have totally brought it upon themselves. Many have done good deeds yet they are hypocritical, greedy, corrupt, and political. They have compromised their faith and completely steered away from what their faith was to be based upon in the first place. Thats why I choose to put my faith in the bible and not in man.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by RJ

I've read that about ten times and still have no idea what you're talking about. Do you really think grown up people make spiritual decisions the way 9th graders decide about smoking? Or am I missing a deeper point?

Yep. I sure do. No real deeper point....

I do think some adults allow peer pressure, coupled with their own hedonistic desires.....to become the basis for living life, to rationalize their own choices...free will....but guilt and human instincts must be....well....suppressed, or else one can easily go mad.

It's a great coping device, for the here and now. It's JMHO....FWIW....I'm not targeting it at you, or anyone in particular....just thinking out loud.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

You think it hasn't changed?

Is this a trick question?

[noa]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Is this a trick question?

I think he's referring to the fact that the words in the Bible haven't changed, but interpretations are always changing.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Yes but as a whole many organized religious leaders have totally brought it upon themselves. Many have done good deeds yet they are hypocritical, greedy, corrupt, and political. They have compromised their faith and completely steered away from what their faith was to be based upon in the first place. Thats why I choose to put my faith in the bible and not in man.

I agree with your point about organized religion. As for the Bible, I find too many contradictions and intelligent but competing "interpretations" to place as much faith as you seem to do....in a book that is, IMO, tainted by human influences and shortcomings. FTR, I still think it's a great guide, and holds many of the answers we seek. I'm just less than sold on the black-and-white version many evangelicals/charismatics/fundamentalists/literalists seem intent on.

[tiptap]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Well there you go. As the science books(that have words in them) you put your faith in keep constantly being re-written, proven wrong and corrected, I guess I'll keep putting my faith in a good book that hasn't changed for 4000 years. Any faith in man is obviuosly futile.

How do you know that the good book hasn't changed for 4000 years? The New Testament wasn't written 4000 years ago for sure. Only a very few people were literate enough to read and write because there was only a limited amount of material to even read. It wasn't until the printing press that we got a technology that made it worth while to have a literate population.

Most people accept that there are two authors or styles of writing in Genesis. The book offers two reading, similar and with imagination non conflicting, of the beginning of things. But there was obviously conflicting focus on what to include in the writings. Probably reflecting the different focus of Israel and Judah divided kingdoms each vying for claim as the real religion and both fed the collection of that material upon the exiles in Babylon that returned to Jerusalem. Those fellows are the sources for the collection of writings that would include the Dead Sea Scrolls and such. (It should be noted that there were a few verses that have been corrected from the King James Version because of the Dead Sea Scrolls)

I am not weded to a specific scientific theory that I won't accept a better one that fits a wider range of facts. That is why we have graduated from Galileo empirical findings of gravity to Newtonian concepts of attraction at a distance to Eisnteins better explanation of distortion in space do to matter to describe gravity. But none of these findings allow for the sun, moon and planets to stop moving in the heavens as claimed by the Bible for Joshua.

I don't have any expectation of changing your mind about your religion. I am confident there is a real emotional tie to your understanding that no words alone would abrupt. I merely stated the thoughts for my reasoning, my testimonial as such. It turns out that I don't expect eternal existence and only a small hope that my decendants will continue to produce decendants. I don't see evidence for life to continue any other way. It is the evidence, if Christians start rising from the dead after 3 days and then rocket off into space after 40 more days, I will be eager to readdress the issue based upon the routine observation available to one and all first hand.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

I agree with your point about organized religion. As for the Bible, I find too many contradictions and intelligent but competing "interpretations" to place as much faith as you seem to do....in a book that is, IMO, tainted by human influences and shortcomings. FTR, I still think it's a great guide, and holds many of the answers we seek. I'm just less than sold on the black-and-white version many evangelicals/charismatics/fundamentalists/literalists seem intent on.

Would you mind sharing perhaps maybe just one of the glaring contradictions that affect the way you view the bibles authenticity? The reason I ask is that I once felt the exact same way as you.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Would you mind sharing perhaps maybe just one of the glaring contradictions that affect the way you view the bibles authenticity? The reason I ask is that I once felt the exact same way as you.

The dichotomy between the Old Testament God, and the New Testament God....for one.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by tiptap

How do you know that the good book hasn't changed for 4000 years? The New Testament wasn't written 4000 years ago for sure.

Upon what basis gives you the accurate knowledge to state that indeed it has changed, therefore allowing you to discredit it? The bible is historically 4000 years old when you take into acount the Hebrew(Old) and the Greek(new) as one book.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

The dichotomy between the Old Testament God, and the New Testament God....for one.

I read what you say but how about a little more explaination.

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Logical

I almost made the following question a thread but thought it might be pushing the mods tolerance level.

If you believe in a creator(s), do you believe they are all knowing and all powerful?

Personally I do not think such a being or beings is likely.

I noticed you said you were raised Catholic but rejected it later.
I was as well.

Did you know that the RC definition of God is "A being that is all knowing."

I never knew that until the past several years.

I seeyou reject it...but that's one thing I actually do still believe in from that faith.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

I noticed you said you were raised Catholic but rejected it later.
I was as well.

Did you know that the RC definition of God is "A being that is all knowing."

I never knew that until the past several years.

I seeyou reject it...but that's one thing I actually do still believe in from that faith.

Agreed, a "not all knowing God" doesnt seem to be as appealing.