** OFFICIAL: "Do You Believe in God and an Afterlife?" Thread**

[Mr. Kotter]

Simple question.

I'm just curious how representative this place is, compared with mainstream America on the question. A few threads of late, just got me wondering....

Please feel free to discuss.

[RJ]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

Yep. I sure do. No real deeper point....

I do think some adults allow peer pressure, coupled with their own hedonistic desires.....to become the basis for living life, to rationalize their own choices...free will....but guilt and human instincts must be....well....suppressed, or else one can easily go mad.

It's a great coping device, for the here and now. It's JMHO....FWIW....I'm not targeting it at you, or anyone in particular....just thinking out loud.

So if I reject the idea of a capital G God based on my years of dealing with the people promoting Him then I am succumbing to peer pressure? Sorry, I have no idea where you're coming from. Which peers are you talking about? That might be true of young people still finding their identity but I doubt many 40+ y/o men are making spiritual choices based on what their buddies think.

[tiptap]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Upon what basis gives you the accurate knowledge to state that indeed it has changed, therefore allowing you to discredit it? The bible is historically 4000 years old when you take into acount the Hebrew(Old) and the Greek(new) as one book.

I mentioned the wrong verses of the King James Version as compared to the Dead Sea Scrolls. That time passage was only 1600 years.

We could discuss the weird change in the number of people involved in Davids civil war fight with Saul. We hear discussions of Saul having armies of thousands and so David and then neither side can raise an army of over 300 a little later in Kings and such. It is a bit wierd to hold that there wasn't exageration going on here and there or the numbers would be more consistent. At other times there are nealy exactly the same census number given for the size of the population of Israel HUNDRED of years apart. Meaning that someone propably just copied them and were not really reflective of an actual census at those different times. The numbers were meant to have some religious purpose.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

I read what you say but how about a little more explaination.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be impolite or flippant. I just thought you'd understand what I meant.

The jealous and vengeful God, whose demands for worship and compliance led to the flood and the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, and his anger toward the Israelites...as manifest during the 40 yrs in the desert, and other Old Testament stories that describe His relationship with "His" people. That and why have some of the Old Testament teachings fallen away.....concubines and polygamy, or the dietary and social norms of the Old law....while others are still "in play?"...

That, compared to the all forgiving and loving God that asks for nothing but faith, and acceptance of His son's sacrifice for our sins. That, and while there seems to be no new covenant to nullify some Old Testament teachings, specifically and clearly many Christians no longer consider them things that should be enforced....role of women, homosexuality, keeping the Sabbath "holy," and other examples.

Free will is one thing. But maybe the creator is a woman after all though....cause he/she sure seems to change his/her mind a lot.

[CHIEF4EVER]

I am a LCMS Lutheran and believe the Bible is the inspired and accurate word and will of GOD. In my opinion it is also much more than that. For me, it is like a mirror. It is humbling. Just when I think I am becoming better than those around me, that mirror reminds me that I am as flawed as everyone else. The more I read it, the more I see how much work I have left to do to correct my shortcomings. At the same time, I rejoice in the fact that, in spite of my shortcomings, I have been made acceptable. I don't deserve it, but I am glad for GODs mercy. I love reading it (the Bible) and no matter how much I read it, I learn something new each time I REread it. A new insight or understanding that suddenly becomes obvious where it was previously unnoticed by me. I believe it happens because GOD always has his hand out and when I reach for him, he grabs me by the hand and allows me to understand a bit more about him. Flame away if you like.

Robert

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by RJ

So if I reject the idea of a capital G God based on my years of dealing with the people promoting Him then I am succumbing to peer pressure? Sorry, I have no idea where you're coming from. Which peers are you talking about? That might be true of young people still finding their identity but I doubt many 40+ y/o men are making spiritual choices based on what their buddies think.

At age 40 or older, it's no longer about peer pressure....it's ingrained at that point. I mean, your peers have already helped to push many of us into a lifestyle and choices, which we may have selfishly chosen. By age 40 or so....we are left to either rationalize the road we have chosen; or to re-evaluate that road, and make a different choice. If you choose the way of your self and what you want....it becomes instinctive and natural, to rationalize that which we choose. It helps us sleep at night.

JMHO

[RJ]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

At age 40 or older, it's no longer about peer pressure....it's ingrained at that point. I mean, your peers have already helped to push many of us into a lifestyle and choices, which we may have selfishly chosen. By age 40 or so....we are left to either rationalize the road we have chosen; or to re-evaluate that road, and make a different choice. If you choose the way of your self and what you want....it becomes instinctive and natural, to rationalize that which we choose. It helps us sleep at night.

JMHO

Again, I'm not sure what you mean. What lifestyles and choices are you speaking of? Is anyone's family life, work life, community life dependent on whether they believe in a higher power? A man can be moral whether he believes in God or not.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by RJ

Again, I'm not sure what you mean. What lifestyles and choices are you speaking of? Is anyone's family life, work life, community life dependent on whether they believe in a higher power? A man can be moral whether he believes in God or not.

I don't disagree with your final statement.

However, I'd simply offer that.....things like drugs, alcohol abuse, pornography, fidelity, integrity, altruism, and compassion are examples of lifestyle "choices," which can be influenced by whether or not one believes in something beyond oneself....or whether one believes that "this" is "it."

If you believe that "this" is "it," IMO it is much easier to choose to live selfishly....arrogantly....and without regard for what some higher power may expect of us.

Once again, JMHO.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be impolite or flippant. I just thought you'd understand what I meant.

The jealous and vengeful God, whose demands for worship and compliance led to the flood and the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, and his anger toward the Israelites...as manifest during the 40 yrs in the desert, and other Old Testament stories that describe His relationship with "His" people. That and why have some of the Old Testament teachings fallen away.....the dietary and social norms of the Old law....while others are still "in play?"...

That, compared to the all forgiving and loving God that asks for nothing but faith, and acceptance of His son's sacrifice for our sins. That, and while there seems to be no new covenant to nullify some Old Testament teachings, specifically and clearly many Christians no longer consider them things that should be enforced....role of women, homosexuality, keeping the Sabbath "holy," and other examples.

Free will is one thing. But maybe the creator is a woman after all though....cause he/she sure seems to change his/her mind a lot.

Thank you for expounding, nothing you need to apologize about.
Interesting point that struck a chord with me, when a follower had asked Jesus if he would show him the Father(God), he replied "He that has seen me has seen the Father also"-John 14:9. Jesus represented his father in every aspect so well that he could state this. When I actually read the OT stories, I could see a God that still showed much patience and love toward many unapreciative undeserving people. So the OT God is is still the same loving NT God that still requires exclusive devotion. Albeit he was much more active and more detail orientated prior to Jesus arrival, then he enacted the latest, less complicated arrangement based mostly on principles. Still, in the NewTestament it clearly states that he will eventually destroy the same type of faithless habitually sinful people that he had destroyed in the past. He hasn't waivered in any way on his high moral standards just because todays religions have and thankfully he still does allow time for repentance. Even though God has done away with such things such as the need to sacrifice animals and abstinence from certain foods, he still requires more than just faith or just believing. He requires action too. He expects us to try earnestly to live our lives accordingly and in harmony with his principles. The reward for doing so is still the same as it was from the very beginning, doing so he rewards us with life and if we choose not, death.
Not sure if this perked up any kind of a different thought for you but what you feel is a common (mis)understanding that I too used to think until I finally opened the book, read it for myself and unbiasly researched it.

PS If God were a woman wonder why she would have made men physically superior to women?

[Logical]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Upon what basis gives you the accurate knowledge to state that indeed it has changed, therefore allowing you to discredit it? The bible is historically 4000 years old when you take into acount the Hebrew(Old) and the Greek(new) as one book.

The Bible literally has dozens of versions you cannot possibly say it has not been rewritten in 4000 years.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by CHIEF4EVER

I am a LCMS Lutheran and believe the Bible is the inspired and accurate word and will of GOD. In my opinion it is also much more than that. For me, it is like a mirror. It is humbling. Just when I think I am becoming better than those around me, that mirror reminds me that I am as flawed as everyone else. The more I read it, the more I see how much work I have left to do to correct my shortcomings. At the same time, I rejoice in the fact that, in spite of my shortcomings, I have been made acceptable. I don't deserve it, but I am glad for GODs mercy. I love reading it (the Bible) and no matter how much I read it, I learn something new each time I REread it. A new insight or understanding that suddenly becomes obvious where it was previously unnoticed by me. I believe it happens because GOD always has his hand out and when I reach for him, he grabs me by the hand and allows me to understand a bit more about him. Flame away if you like.

Robert

Your a brave man Robert to come here and state this....read on!

[Logical]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

I noticed you said you were raised Catholic but rejected it later.
I was as well.

Did you know that the RC definition of God is "A being that is all knowing."

I never knew that until the past several years.

I seeyou reject it...but that's one thing I actually do still believe in from that faith.

I made a post on this very topic a while ago and no one responded. I asked whether the people who believe in a Creator(s) believed they are all knowing and all powerful.

I said I did not.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by Logical

I asked whether the people who believe in a Creator(s) believed they are all knowing and all powerful.

I said I did not.

Are you trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?

[Logical]

Originally Posted by RJ

Again, I'm not sure what you mean. What lifestyles and choices are you speaking of? Is anyone's family life, work life, community life dependent on whether they believe in a higher power? A man can be moral whether he believes in God or not.

We agree so much it is amazing.

[noa]

Originally Posted by Logical

I made a post on this very topic a while ago and no one responded. I asked whether the people who believe in a Creator(s) believed they are all knowing and all powerful.

I said I did not.

I guess one line of thinking would ask if the terms 'all knowing' and 'all powerful' are even fair terms to use in a discussion of God due to their anthropomorphistic nature.

[Logical]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

...

PS If God were a woman wonder why she would have made men physically superior to women?

Actually the idea that God has a sex is amusing in and of itself.