Chiefs Why people are disappointed: Exhibit A - Talent Evaluation - Page 26

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-14-2009, 11:24 AM

Since there seems to be several myths, excuses and some flat-out lies about why some folks are pissed off about this team right now, I thought I'd put together a few threads explaining, as clearly as I can, where people are coming from.

One of the bigger excuses is the infamous, "Pioli inherited a shitty team."

Let me make this clear: I do not disagree.

However, that doesn't excuse the Executive of the Decade for the team being no better now than it was this time last year - and you could make an argument that it is worse.

And one of the reasons why this team still sucks is simple:

The Executive of the Decade missed BADLY on talent evaluation.

I just spent a few minutes researching the transactions Pioli has made since taking the job, and it's even worse than I originally thought.

Counting draft picks, trades and signings, Pioli is responsible for FORTY FIVE new players to this organization.

And of these 45, it's fair to say that only Succop and Chambers are clear upgrades to their predecessors.

Two. Out of forty-five.

That's a whopping 4% success rate.

I'm sorry, but blaming Herm here is ridiculous. The best players on this team are Herm's players.

Looking at the current roster - including the active roster, PS and IR - 54% of the players currently in this organization are Pioli's.

Exactly half of the current starting 22 are Pioli's.

And this team is ONE win better than a 2008 squad that featured Tyler ****ing Thigpen at QB, and employed Gunther Cunningham as the DC.

With the majority being Pioli's hand-picked players.

Let the excuses flow like fine wine.

Discus.

This ought to be fun - let's hit that Millionth post.

**DeezNutz** · 12-16-2009, 02:48 PM

Damn near any of the top WRs last year would have justified the selection:

Maclin, Harvin, Crabtree.

Raji would have justified the selection.

**BossChief** · 12-16-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC Fish

So despite the fact that Seymour was drafted as a DT in a 4-3, and was converted to a 3-4 DE 3 years later, that's the only name you can come up with?

I don't find that very convincing.

That is what we should have done here.

That is my big gripe so far, dont you go with the system that fits your players?

I can see moving to the 3-4, but to do so at the drop of a hat was kinda sketchy when we had more 4-3 players here...oh well spilt milk. No sense crying about it any longer.

Fish · 12-16-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

Well there wasn't a matt Ryan sitting there in this draft.

No, there wasn't a Matt Ryan. However, there was a Mark Sanchez, a B.J. Raji, a Clay Matthews, a Brian Cushing, a Percy Harvin, a Eugene Monroe, etc. available. All of which have become foundational players.

Mecca · 12-16-2009, 02:52 PM

Just so you know this is the same forum where a bunch of people didn't want Matt Ryan.

**dirk digler** · 12-16-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC Fish

So despite the fact that Seymour was drafted as a DT in a 4-3, and was converted to a 3-4 DE 3 years later, that's the only name you can come up with?

I don't find that very convincing.

Sorry.

Here is an interesting article about 3-4 DE's.

http://www.nfltouchdown.com/nfls-newest-trend-3-4-des/
NFL’s Newest Trend: 3-4 DE’s

After spending virtually all of March and April reviewing the 2008 film on all 32 teams, what stood out the most was just how important the defensive line has become in a 3-4 scheme.

Because the 3-4 scheme continues to seep deeper into the NFL mainstream we’re going to see more emphasis placed on the demands of its personnel. The common belief has long been that pass-rushing outside linebackers make or break a 3-4 defense. This is still true. But what teams are starting to figure out is that the defensive ends are almost equally as vital – especially when it comes to stopping the run.

No longer is it good enough for a three-man front to have just a dominant nose tackle alongside two mediocre ends. As the film showed this past season, the best 3-4 defenses are the ones that control the entire line of scrimmage – including the edges.
Take a look at the personnel of some of the best 3-4 defenses in the NFL. The Pittsburgh Steelers have their blocker-eater in NT Casey Hampton, and then they have two excellent anchors in Aaron Smith (who, by the way, can also get in the backfield) and Travis Kirschke.

The next best 3-4 defense is either the New England Patriots or Baltimore Ravens. It’s no coincidence that the Pats feature future Hall of Famer Richard Seymour at one end and maddeningly underrated stud Ty Warren at the other. The Ravens present a burgeoning young star in Haloti Ngata at one of their end spots, and powerful veteran Trevor Pryce at the other.

The rest of the NFL has taken note. They saw the Browns defense and its pathetic ends get pummeled despite the presence of All-Pro NT Shaun Rogers last year. They saw Dallas suffer from the unusual inconsistencies of Marcus Spears and Chris Canty. This is why 3-4 DE’s Tyson Jackson, B.J. Raji (who can also play NT) and Evander Hood all went in the first round this past weekend.

I thought it was a little curious that the Chiefs – who are implementing a new 3-4 scheme in 2009 – took Jackson at No. 3 overall. They already had Tamba Hali – who is undersized but a good enough run defender to handle an anchoring role – along with last year’s first-round pick, Glenn Dorsey, who looks like the next Richard Seymour (and that’s something I’ve never said about anyone before). Dorsey could possibly play the nose, but I think his talent is too unique to be muffled by double teams inside.
Still, Chiefs GM Scott Pioli came from New England and understands the importance of building up front. Give him the benefit of the doubt here.

For the Packers, don’t be surprised if they use Raji in the same way the Ravens use Ngata. The Boston College product is big and explosive enough to wreak havoc from the nose, but he also has enough athleticism to operate with more space on the edge. Veteran behemoth Ryan Pickett is capable of handling the three-gap responsibilities inside, which is why I think you’ll see Raji get plenty of reps on the edge.

Hood, the newest Steeler, has the easiest transition to the NFL. He’ll spend this season, and possibly next season, developing behind Smith, Kirschke and Brett Kiesel. The Steelers’ three-man front dictates the action every Sunday because Pittsburgh’s scheme places minimal responsibilities on the linemen, which allows all three men to operate more as one unit.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-16-2009, 02:54 PM

Damn, gone an hour and a half and this thread blew up.

Thoughts:

Someone said Jason Brown has had no impact in STL. Might want to ask Steven Jackson about that. Dude is facing a constant 8 in the box, and he's SECOND in the league in rushing yards.

Someone also made the ignorant claim that it would have cost KC 25% more to sign him. STL was in as bad of shape as we were/are, why would he demand more to play here?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I still haven't seen an answer to these questions:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

Ok, so Pioli has taken a lot of heat from some of the posters in this thread, but let's ask a more specific question to those whose faith is still unwavering:

What has Pioli done well? What are his successes in KC thus far? Please be specific.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

Ok, but you really haven't addressed the question.

What has he started to build? Are there any new pieces to the foundation? Does a 5 tech count? The kicker?

The puddle of mud is enough? At least that ugly ass house isn't here any longer?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by tooge

Man, you guys are good at dodging questions. Sooooo, would you have signed Canty, Haynesworth, or Brown, or all three? Do you think that would have translated into more than 6 wins?

First, this has NEVER been about wins - it's about acquiring some building blocks. I wouldn't have signed Haynesworth, but I absolutely would have signed Brown and either Canty or Olshansky. That would have not only opened up our R1 pick for a playmaker, but would have given us young, long term solutions to build on.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC Fish

I predicted 3 wins this season. I didn't expect anything close to instant reward. But I did expect just a little bit of progress. Something, anything to indicate we're headed in the right direction and actually building something. The fact is, many are scratching their heads trying to come up with a short list of improvements over last season, and coming up with next to nothing.

Couldn't agree more, Fish.

beach tribe · 12-16-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Bullshit.

But go ahead and claim that nonsense because you don't have a leg to stand on in this debate.

As usual.

And what's Denver's excuse?

You failed to address that one as well.

Or are you going to claim that without Orton, they'd suck?

We ALL though that Denver was going to CRASH and BURN.

Which goes to show that all this hindsight 20-20 crap about all the ****-ups
that that were made this off-season are so redamndiculous.
Everybody bitches about the TJ pick.
I don't have that big of a problem with it. I think he's gonna be a BAD ASS.
And if that's the case, it's better to have a bad-ass 5 tech, than a bust QB like Sanchez is gonna be.
That's my point.
Everbody makes this huge deal about positional value, and they are right, but there just wasn't shit up there. Orakpo looks like a beast next to Henderson, Sure, would he look like that here? I doubt it, but I would have had no problem with, that pick either.
Pioli came out before the season and said that they were going to evaluate this roster first. It was as plain as day that, that's what they were going to do.

ChiefsCountry · 12-16-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

Just so you know this is the same forum where a bunch of people didn't want Matt Ryan.

I'll admit I didn't want Matt Ryan, so will OTW and Hamas and we all eat crow about being wrong about him.

Chiefnj2 · 12-16-2009, 02:58 PM

"I had an interesting conversation this week with Coach (Jimmy) Johnson. We were talking about defensive linemen, and I’m not comparing him to this player I’m about to speak about. I remember Coach Johnson a long time ago in conversations Bill and I had had with him and in separate conversations about Russell Maryland. That year they were due to pick the fourth spot overall and they traded up from four to one to get Russell Maryland, a player who played in the league for 10 years, had only 24 and a half sacks over the course of his career and only went to one Pro Bowl. But Coach Johnson talked about the importance of Russell Maryland – again, different positions – how he allowed him to play the defense they wanted to play and what an important component he was even though he didn’t rack up sacks or only went to one Pro Bowl. What he was as a player in a very key position allowed the defense to be what the defense was."

**DeezNutz** · 12-16-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

Sorry.

Here is an interesting article about 3-4 DE's.

http://www.nfltouchdown.com/nfls-newest-trend-3-4-des/
NFL’s Newest Trend: 3-4 DE’s

After spending virtually all of March and April reviewing the 2008 film on all 32 teams, what stood out the most was just how important the defensive line has become in a 3-4 scheme.

Because the 3-4 scheme continues to seep deeper into the NFL mainstream we’re going to see more emphasis placed on the demands of its personnel. The common belief has long been that pass-rushing outside linebackers make or break a 3-4 defense. This is still true. But what teams are starting to figure out is that the defensive ends are almost equally as vital – especially when it comes to stopping the run.

No longer is it good enough for a three-man front to have just a dominant nose tackle alongside two mediocre ends. As the film showed this past season, the best 3-4 defenses are the ones that control the entire line of scrimmage – including the edges.
Take a look at the personnel of some of the best 3-4 defenses in the NFL. The Pittsburgh Steelers have their blocker-eater in NT Casey Hampton, and then they have two excellent anchors in Aaron Smith (who, by the way, can also get in the backfield) and Travis Kirschke.

The next best 3-4 defense is either the New England Patriots or Baltimore Ravens. It’s no coincidence that the Pats feature future Hall of Famer Richard Seymour at one end and maddeningly underrated stud Ty Warren at the other. The Ravens present a burgeoning young star in Haloti Ngata at one of their end spots, and powerful veteran Trevor Pryce at the other.

The rest of the NFL has taken note. They saw the Browns defense and its pathetic ends get pummeled despite the presence of All-Pro NT Shaun Rogers last year. They saw Dallas suffer from the unusual inconsistencies of Marcus Spears and Chris Canty. This is why 3-4 DE’s Tyson Jackson, B.J. Raji (who can also play NT) and Evander Hood all went in the first round this past weekend.

I thought it was a little curious that the Chiefs – who are implementing a new 3-4 scheme in 2009 – took Jackson at No. 3 overall. They already had Tamba Hali – who is undersized but a good enough run defender to handle an anchoring role – along with last year’s first-round pick, Glenn Dorsey, who looks like the next Richard Seymour (and that’s something I’ve never said about anyone before). Dorsey could possibly play the nose, but I think his talent is too unique to be muffled by double teams inside.
Still, Chiefs GM Scott Pioli came from New England and understands the importance of building up front. Give him the benefit of the doubt here.

For the Packers, don’t be surprised if they use Raji in the same way the Ravens use Ngata. The Boston College product is big and explosive enough to wreak havoc from the nose, but he also has enough athleticism to operate with more space on the edge. Veteran behemoth Ryan Pickett is capable of handling the three-gap responsibilities inside, which is why I think you’ll see Raji get plenty of reps on the edge.

Hood, the newest Steeler, has the easiest transition to the NFL. He’ll spend this season, and possibly next season, developing behind Smith, Kirschke and Brett Kiesel. The Steelers’ three-man front dictates the action every Sunday because Pittsburgh’s scheme places minimal responsibilities on the linemen, which allows all three men to operate more as one unit.

4th round--109th overall.
Undrafted.

"Give him the benefit of the doubt." Trust the process, boys.

tooge · 12-16-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

What would a year from now have to do with his failures THIS offseason?

Hell, he better knock it out of the park in 2010 - but that doesn't change the epic fail of 2009.

Well, I am guessing you wont be talking about the FAIL of '09 if he makes a free agent splash or two, lands a known 3-4 defensive coordinator, brings in a QB coach and offensive coordinator, and has a nice draft, then we are sitting with 7 or 8 wins this time next year. My point being that maybe, just maybe, he knows more about football than you or I and maybe, just maybe you will realize that this wasn't the FAIL you thought it was. On the other hand, I could be the one realizing just the opposite. I'm banking he knows more than us.

**BossChief** · 12-16-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

Damn near any of the top WRs last year would have justified the selection:

Maclin, Harvin, Crabtree.

Raji would have justified the selection.

Maclin would be a waste for us, he is a deep threat and we cant throw deep.

Harvin would be a piece that would have been nice, but playmaking wrs can be had later in the round in almost every year.

Crabtree acted very immature and I wonder how he would have fit in with Haleys style. I liked him, though. He was my #2 option to Orakpo.

Raji would be a great pick as our NT, but the guy is dumb and missed a year of school because of it. Do you really want to hand that much $$$$ to a dumb****?

All the top prospect olinemen had huge question marks, when you have as many wasted picks as we had in the last ten or so years, you have to come out of the draft with "something" and taking TJ has obviously effected Dorseys play IMHO. I bet anything it factored into the decision.

I hate the fact we didnt take Orakpo, but also realize that these kids are gonna take time to show their worth.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-16-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

Sorry.

Here is an interesting article about 3-4 DE's.

http://www.nfltouchdown.com/nfls-newest-trend-3-4-des/
NFL’s Newest Trend: 3-4 DE’s

After spending virtually all of March and April reviewing the 2008 film on all 32 teams, what stood out the most was just how important the defensive line has become in a 3-4 scheme.

Because the 3-4 scheme continues to seep deeper into the NFL mainstream we’re going to see more emphasis placed on the demands of its personnel. The common belief has long been that pass-rushing outside linebackers make or break a 3-4 defense. This is still true. But what teams are starting to figure out is that the defensive ends are almost equally as vital – especially when it comes to stopping the run.

No longer is it good enough for a three-man front to have just a dominant nose tackle alongside two mediocre ends. As the film showed this past season, the best 3-4 defenses are the ones that control the entire line of scrimmage – including the edges.
Take a look at the personnel of some of the best 3-4 defenses in the NFL. The Pittsburgh Steelers have their blocker-eater in NT Casey Hampton, and then they have two excellent anchors in Aaron Smith (who, by the way, can also get in the backfield) and Travis Kirschke.

The next best 3-4 defense is either the New England Patriots or Baltimore Ravens. It’s no coincidence that the Pats feature future Hall of Famer Richard Seymour at one end and maddeningly underrated stud Ty Warren at the other. The Ravens present a burgeoning young star in Haloti Ngata at one of their end spots, and powerful veteran Trevor Pryce at the other.

The rest of the NFL has taken note. They saw the Browns defense and its pathetic ends get pummeled despite the presence of All-Pro NT Shaun Rogers last year. They saw Dallas suffer from the unusual inconsistencies of Marcus Spears and Chris Canty. This is why 3-4 DE’s Tyson Jackson, B.J. Raji (who can also play NT) and Evander Hood all went in the first round this past weekend.

I thought it was a little curious that the Chiefs – who are implementing a new 3-4 scheme in 2009 – took Jackson at No. 3 overall. They already had Tamba Hali – who is undersized but a good enough run defender to handle an anchoring role – along with last year’s first-round pick, Glenn Dorsey, who looks like the next Richard Seymour (and that’s something I’ve never said about anyone before). Dorsey could possibly play the nose, but I think his talent is too unique to be muffled by double teams inside.
Still, Chiefs GM Scott Pioli came from New England and understands the importance of building up front. Give him the benefit of the doubt here.

For the Packers, don’t be surprised if they use Raji in the same way the Ravens use Ngata. The Boston College product is big and explosive enough to wreak havoc from the nose, but he also has enough athleticism to operate with more space on the edge. Veteran behemoth Ryan Pickett is capable of handling the three-gap responsibilities inside, which is why I think you’ll see Raji get plenty of reps on the edge.

Hood, the newest Steeler, has the easiest transition to the NFL. He’ll spend this season, and possibly next season, developing behind Smith, Kirschke and Brett Kiesel. The Steelers’ three-man front dictates the action every Sunday because Pittsburgh’s scheme places minimal responsibilities on the linemen, which allows all three men to operate more as one unit.

So, one of the starting DE's on the best 3-4 defense in the NFL was drafted in the 4th round, and the other was undrafted.

And of the others, the only guy taken in the Top 5 was Jackson.

You've really sold me, Dirk.

**DeezNutz** · 12-16-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beach tribe

We ALL though that Denver was going to CRASH and BURN.
.

Give him credit. Dane did NOT think this, and there are a shit ton of posts from him saying otherwise, cautioning people not to discount Denver.

**DeezNutz** · 12-16-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

Maclin would be a waste for us, he is a deep threat and we cant throw deep.

Harvin would be a piece that would have been nice, but playmaking wrs can be had later in the round in almost every year.

Crabtree acted very immature and I wonder how he would have fit in with Haleys style. I liked him, though. He was my #2 option to Orakpo.

Raji would be a great pick as our NT, but the guy is dumb and missed a year of school because of it. Do you really want to hand that much $$$$ to a dumb****?
.

. Maclin would have been wasted because our QB sucks. Calvin Johnson would be wasted, too, but I'd take 'em.

In a talent-weak class, I just listed 4 clearly better options.

Regarding Raji, we hand money to dumb****s all the time in KC; it's what we do.

12-14-2009, 11:24 AM
OnTheWarpath15 MVP Join Date: Sep 2005 Casino cash: $2021115	Why people are disappointed: Exhibit A - Talent Evaluation Since there seems to be several myths, excuses and some flat-out lies about why some folks are pissed off about this team right now, I thought I'd put together a few threads explaining, as clearly as I can, where people are coming from. One of the bigger excuses is the infamous, "Pioli inherited a shitty team." Let me make this clear: I do not disagree. However, that doesn't excuse the Executive of the Decade for the team being no better now than it was this time last year - and you could make an argument that it is worse. And one of the reasons why this team still sucks is simple: The Executive of the Decade missed BADLY on talent evaluation. I just spent a few minutes researching the transactions Pioli has made since taking the job, and it's even worse than I originally thought. Counting draft picks, trades and signings, Pioli is responsible for FORTY FIVE new players to this organization. And of these 45, it's fair to say that only Succop and Chambers are clear upgrades to their predecessors. Two. Out of forty-five. That's a whopping 4% success rate. I'm sorry, but blaming Herm here is ridiculous. The best players on this team are Herm's players. Looking at the current roster - including the active roster, PS and IR - 54% of the players currently in this organization are Pioli's. Exactly half of the current starting 22 are Pioli's. And this team is ONE win better than a 2008 squad that featured Tyler ****ing Thigpen at QB, and employed Gunther Cunningham as the DC. With the majority being Pioli's hand-picked players. Let the excuses flow like fine wine. Discus. This ought to be fun - let's hit that Millionth post.
Posts: 60,758

12-16-2009, 02:52 PM	#379
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-782950	Just so you know this is the same forum where a bunch of people didn't want Matt Ryan.
Posts: 115,406

12-16-2009, 02:58 PM	#384
Chiefnj2 In Search of a Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Casino cash: $6654388	"I had an interesting conversation this week with Coach (Jimmy) Johnson. We were talking about defensive linemen, and I’m not comparing him to this player I’m about to speak about. I remember Coach Johnson a long time ago in conversations Bill and I had had with him and in separate conversations about Russell Maryland. That year they were due to pick the fourth spot overall and they traded up from four to one to get Russell Maryland, a player who played in the league for 10 years, had only 24 and a half sacks over the course of his career and only went to one Pro Bowl. But Coach Johnson talked about the importance of Russell Maryland – again, different positions – how he allowed him to play the defense they wanted to play and what an important component he was even though he didn’t rack up sacks or only went to one Pro Bowl. What he was as a player in a very key position allowed the defense to be what the defense was." __________________ Mismanaging the clock.
Posts: 22,541