The biggest reason our offense was great was the O-Line, Herm didn't ruin it.

[Red Dawg]

Herm has not ruined our offense. We don't have a dominate line anymore which has led to less yardage in the air and on the ground. Couple that with mediocre WR's and a suspect FB and this is what you get.

Trent is looking old as well. His arm no longer has the power to go down field. How many throws have hit the ground. How many times against Balt did they run up and knock the ball away from our WR's. We've seen Trnet under throw our guys more than once this year on deep patterns. This is related to arm strength.

Herm deserves a chance to build his team. Get the O-line he wants and get larger more physical WR's that can get the ball without having to be wide open.

At least we know damn well he will get some more beef for the D-line.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Firstly, let me say that you don't speak for all Chiefs fans. Some of us were VERY excited to see Vermeil come in, because we were VERY tired of Martyball. But some of us were also extremely relieved to see Vermeil LEAVE and we've been without any meaningful wins for SO LONG that we're willing to accept the return of conservatism if it means we can WIN.

And in Herm's defense, a great many Chiefs fans ARE NOT very smart at all. I'm sure Laz will be here any minute, because this really gets his goat, but it's true. I've said it many times:

The average Planeteer is FAR MORE football saavy than the average Chiefs fan.

From the standpoint of football savvy-ness, I have been nonplussed with what Herm has done, but for the record, I've also been one of his biggest detractors. I never wanted him here in the first place, so that could color my opinion of him to some extent. However, it's hard to watch this offense's functioning (or lack thereof) this year. You can put a good deal of it on execution, but poor coaching, game planning, and play calling have had a greater hand in it, IMO.

We never run screens, reverses or counters. We almost never run the stretch play anymore, which negates Wiegmann's best abilities as an O-lineman.

Running one TE screen does not connotate trying to set up an adequate misdirection game plan. Furthermore, the wholesale lack of spreading the field (which helps negate our receivers' inability to get open) is stupid coaching. If you spread the field and give Trent carte blanche for audibles, then you let Larry run into six or seven man fronts, and if they stack, you can use a quick hitter, or a pump and go.

We've also never used the pump draw this year, primarily because we have no semblance of how to pass to open up the run. Moreover, Herm is extremely myopic in his management of LJ. Running the guy 440 times in one year might help you win 1 or 2 more games this year, but it's going to cost you 10 over the next 4.

There is a huge gap in logic for someone to be so conservative offensively, while brazenly grinding our best playmaker into the ground, acting as though there will be no recourse for so many carries, and that's one of the main reasons why I don't think Herman Edwards should be a head coach in the NFL.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by 'Hummus' Jenkins

We never run screens, reverses or counters. We almost never run the stretch play anymore, which negates Wiegmann's best abilities as an O-lineman.

Yes we do. They just don't work. If you look at the statistics, we get far more yardage running up the gut than we do running to the left or right sides. It's all about execution.

Furthermore, the wholesale lack of spreading the field (which helps negate our receivers' inability to get open) is stupid coaching. If you spread the field and give Trent carte blanche for audibles, then you let Larry run into six or seven man fronts, and if they stack, you can use a quick hitter, or a pump and go.

We don't have the receivers or offensive line for that. Our RT is so terrible that if we don't keep extra blockers in, our QB gets killed. Trent got rocked on a *1 step drop* on Sunday. He couldn't even get the designed screen off. That's how bad it is.

Running the guy 440 times in one year might help you win 1 or 2 more games this year, but it's going to cost you 10 over the next 4.

I agree, to an extent. Bennett has been effective when he was in there. We gave up a 4th for him... might as well get some use out of him before he goes off injuring himself while racing offensive linemen again.

[Oucho Cinco]

Originally Posted by Tuckdaddy

Herm has not ruined our offense. We don't have a dominate line anymore which has led to less yardage in the air and on the ground. Couple that with mediocre WR's and a suspect FB and this is what you get.

Trent is looking old as well. His arm no longer has the power to go down field. How many throws have hit the ground. How many times against Balt did they run up and knock the ball away from our WR's. We've seen Trnet under throw our guys more than once this year on deep patterns. This is related to arm strength.

Herm deserves a chance to build his team. Get the O-line he wants and get larger more physical WR's that can get the ball without having to be wide open.

At least we know damn well he will get some more beef for the D-line.

Herm has stated that the next three years they are drafting defense. Doesn't do much to bolster faith in what the offense will be doing in the near future.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Silock

Yes we do. They just don't work. If you look at the statistics, we get far more yardage running up the gut than we do running to the left or right sides. It's all about execution.



We don't have the receivers or offensive line for that. Our RT is so terrible that if we don't keep extra blockers in, our QB gets killed. Trent got rocked on a *1 step drop* on Sunday. He couldn't even get the designed screen off. That's how bad it is.



I agree, to an extent. Bennett has been effective when he was in there. We gave up a 4th for him... might as well get some use out of him before he goes off injuring himself while racing offensive linemen again.

Running off tackle isn't misdirection. Shields and Wiegmann both operate best in space. Using them on occasional stretch plays helps open up the middle. FWIW, we've been largely stonewalled up the gut by teams who run 3-4's this year (San Diego last week, Pitt, etc.)

Getting beat on a one step drop isn't the O-line's fault...the D had his candence down to a T. No one in the NFL is that fast unless they know what is coming from the snap count.

We didn't and haven't run very many counters or screens this year. It's a fact that is readily visible by observation of any Chiefs game. If you can't see that, then you have much larger issues to deal with...like blindness.

And FWIW, the spread isn't so that you can execute 7 step drops...it's so that you can get more favorable matchups for Tony, Wilson and Kennison on shorter routes. It also opens up running lanes for LJ. We obviously can't run 20 yard square-ins w/ this o-line, but that doesn't mean that we can't spread out the D to ensure they attack from the edges rather than right up our gut as happened last week.

[Chiefnj]

We don't have the receivers or offensive line for that. Our RT is so terrible that if we don't keep extra blockers in, our QB gets killed. Trent got rocked on a *1 step drop* on Sunday. He couldn't even get the designed screen off. That's how bad it is.

I don't have the inclination to watch the game again, but I'm pretty sure the majority of pressure that came from SD came up the gut against the "strength" of KC's OL. Granted Welbourn has not been the same since he has stopped his supplements, however a lot of the pass protection problems this past week came from the middle of the line.

[2112]

Originally Posted by 'Hummus' Jenkins

There is a huge gap in logic for someone to be so conservative offensively.

UH OH..We got Hamas in this thread now..

I think it's more important to point out that you can still be conservative offensively without being predictable..

[Silock]

Originally Posted by 'Hummus' Jenkins

Running off tackle isn't misdirection. Shields and Wiegmann both operate best in space. Using them on occasional stretch plays helps open up the middle. FWIW, we've been largely stonewalled up the gut by teams who run 3-4's this year (San Diego last week, Pitt, etc.)

Misdirection plays do not work unless you get the stretch play working. We've been stonewalled on the outside this year. So, if you follow the train of logic there, it's very, very difficult to get any kind of misdirection going when the stretch play doesn't work. And we've been stonewalled by 3-4 teams this year in ALL phases, not just up the middle. We still get the vast majority of our rushing yards up the middle, and it's not even a contest.

Getting beat on a one step drop isn't the O-line's fault...the D had his candence down to a T. No one in the NFL is that fast unless they know what is coming from the snap count.

They anticipated the snap count, but they also were not blocked or touched. They just ran straight through.

We didn't and haven't run very many counters or screens this year. It's a fact that is readily visible by observation of any Chiefs game. If you can't see that, then you have much larger issues to deal with...like blindness.

No, we haven't. But it's deeper than just playcalling. Maybe playcalling is part of it, but you have to be able to physically execute the plays against the other team, and that's just not something that's happened much this year.

And FWIW, the spread isn't so that you can execute 7 step drops...

Duh?

it's so that you can get more favorable matchups for Tony, Wilson and Kennison on shorter routes. It also opens up running lanes for LJ. We obviously can't run 20 yard square-ins w/ this o-line, but that doesn't mean that we can't spread out the D to ensure they attack from the edges rather than right up our gut as happened last week.

Look, we got creamed by good defenses for a reason. It's execution, and we're just not doing that on offense right now, in any phase. Neither the Ravens nor the Chargers had to blitz to get pressure on our QB. They were able to generate pressure with their line. Blitzes just made the play over more quickly. Now, I agree that we should spread it out some more, but that's just a bandaid, and it won't work every single time. The problem is much deeper than that.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by 'Hummus' Jenkins

Running off tackle isn't misdirection. Shields and Wiegmann both operate best in space. Using them on occasional stretch plays helps open up the middle. FWIW, we've been largely stonewalled up the gut by teams who run 3-4's this year (San Diego last week, Pitt, etc.)

Getting beat on a one step drop isn't the O-line's fault...the D had his candence down to a T. No one in the NFL is that fast unless they know what is coming from the snap count.

We didn't and haven't run very many counters or screens this year. It's a fact that is readily visible by observation of any Chiefs game. If you can't see that, then you have much larger issues to deal with...like blindness.

And FWIW, the spread isn't so that you can execute 7 step drops...it's so that you can get more favorable matchups for Tony, Wilson and Kennison on shorter routes. It also opens up running lanes for LJ. We obviously can't run 20 yard square-ins w/ this o-line, but that doesn't mean that we can't spread out the D to ensure they attack from the edges rather than right up our gut as happened last week.

Wiegmann operates better in space. Shields doens't need space. He established himself as one of the best in the league under Marty, blocking straight ahead like he is now.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Silock

Misdirection plays do not work unless you get the stretch play working. We've been stonewalled on the outside this year. So, if you follow the train of logic there, it's very, very difficult to get any kind of misdirection going when the stretch play doesn't work. And we've been stonewalled by 3-4 teams this year in ALL phases, not just up the middle. We still get the vast majority of our rushing yards up the middle, and it's not even a contest.



They anticipated the snap count, but they also were not blocked or touched. They just ran straight through.



No, we haven't. But it's deeper than just playcalling. Maybe playcalling is part of it, but you have to be able to physically execute the plays against the other team, and that's just not something that's happened much this year.



Duh?



Look, we got creamed by good defenses for a reason. It's execution, and we're just not doing that on offense right now, in any phase. Neither the Ravens nor the Chargers had to blitz to get pressure on our QB. They were able to generate pressure with their line. Blitzes just made the play over more quickly. Now, I agree that we should spread it out some more, but that's just a bandaid, and it won't work every single time. The problem is much deeper than that.

Did you ever think that the reason we got stonewalled had to do with the fact that the only thing our offense *wants* to do is run up the middle and when that is taken away our entire scheme falls apart?

We tried the stretch play a few times in the opener, and it didn't work...but to say that it has been taken away all year is ridiculous. After that game, Solari/Herm basically gave up on it. They're like a damned abused dog. If one bad thing happens, they cower in the corner and piss all over themselves...

They've done this all year, whether it's crawling into a complete shell after a turnover, or completely giving up on the screen game because one poorly designed play (a fucking TE screen) is snuffed out, never trying draws, pump draws, or actually running a reverse (which no one respects in the PA game, because we never actually do it save for Parker in Miami).

Without Roaf, without Wellbourne, using a less-experienced Black and Sampson on the edges, this team still moved the ball last year. People point to the Buffalo game...but that was an anomaly. The first six games last year, our offense averaged 25 ppg, and that's with a 10 point shitbath effort in Denver. This year, with the same players, our offense has put up 10 and 9 points in successive games. We've sucked ass in the redzone all year, and that's just the beginning of it.

We have a coach whose philosophy is play not ot lose, and an offensive coordinator who hasn't proven he can put the requisite planning together to lead a whore to bed.


Here's my question for you: When a reasonable poster (like bill parcells) points out the stunning similarities between this offense and the Jet offense of 01-05, doesn't that mean anything to you? parcells is a legitimate Jet fan and a good poster, he's not a troll. Look at the mediocrity of the offense, the lack of possession, the pandering to the media, the grousing from the locker room IN YEAR ONE.

Herm is an empty suit.

[buddha]

It shouldn't matter what Trent's intentions are! If you want to keep Huard, you sign him now. It's a freaking business and Trent understands how it works...he's a big boy. The point about the offensive problems stemming from the sharp decline of the o-line is correct. Our receivers were just as poor last year, however, we didn't have to depend on them as much. Trent didn't have as much pressure because people were scared of LJ. The defense is BETTER than last year's version, although you'd never know it by reading many posts around here.

Anybody who is blaming Herm for our current problems really hasn't thought this thing through. We saw this day coming, didn't we? That line was aging before our eyes over the last couple of years and it was only a matter of time before things came apart.

KC is several positions shy on both sides of the ball right now. We can argue over which needs are the greatest, but the bottom line is that this team needs 2-3 good drafts and 2-3 good years of smart free agency transactions before we are where we need to be.

As for the comments about Shields being equally good straight ahead as he is on the move, I disagree. I think Will used to be very effective as a base blocker, but he has taken a few steps back in that area. He has always been a GREAT pulling guard because he is agile and can adjust so well on the move.

[chief2000]

LJ's blocking helped contribute to the loss at SD.

We should have taken OLINE in the second round last season : Should have moved up to get Mcneal.

[Reerun_KC]

Originally Posted by buddha

KC is several positions shy on both sides of the ball right now. We can argue over which needs are the greatest, but the bottom line is that this team needs 2-3 good drafts and 2-3 good years of smart free agency transactions before we are where we need to be.

Well we are pretty much screwed than... Cause this hasnt happen very often in Carls 18 years of his 5 year plan...

[Calcountry]

I don't think you can point to one player(Roaf/Welbourne) or one Coach or GM. The team mentality as a whole just sucks.

They are in a "League of Losers", and until that culture is changed, it will remain that way.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by 'Hummus' Jenkins

When a reasonable poster (like bill parcells) points out the stunning similarities between this offense and the Jet offense of 01-05, doesn't that mean anything to you?

There are no "stunning similarities" that you can't point to and come to any reasonable conclusions. Some years, Herm ran the ball more, some he passed more. The years he passed more, he was less successful. The years he ran more, he usually got a playoff berth and a win, which is more than the 30 PPG, league leading offense ever got us. You can bitch and moan about the lack of offensive production, and you'd be right. We need more production. But you absolutely cannot ignore the injury situation and all around cluster**** that the offensive line has been this year. It's just not rational.

If, at this point next year, after all reasonable attempts to fix the offensive line have been made, and they are an improved unit and we're sitting a .500 or below, then I'll jump on your bandwagon. But not until then. It just doesn't make any sense to come to any conclusions right now. Belichick sucked before he got to the Patriots (and no, I'm not saying Herm is going to be Belichick). Every team and coaching combination is different, and it's a mistake to compare them. You have to take each situation as it comes. What I see is an improved defense, and an inherited offense with aging, injury, a new OC and lack of skill at the WR position. All good things come to an end. I think it's just an unfortunate coincidence that Herm showed up when he did. He's taking a lot of heat right now, because people expected immediate results. 37 years of frustration is coming to a head, and it sucks for the guy caught in the middle. I know that in this day and age we perpetually live in a "What have you done for me lately" mood, but this is a bit ridiculous.

I just don't believe it's possible to come to any kind of reasonable conclusion about a coach after only one season. If you want to do so, that's fine, but don't try and peddle it off as some kind of set in concrete fact. Your opinion is just as valid as mine, but without sufficient data, they are both opinions without much factual data backing them up.