What the Hell is a "System QB" and why is it bad to be one?

[Amnorix]

I just saw this in another thread (Ryan's Pro Day workout at BC) and it brought to mind why this phrase gets tossed around all the time as some kind of insult. As I understand it, "He's just a system QB" is generally thrown out there to say that a QB looks better than he really is, presumably because the "system" that he is in MAKES him look better. In other words, it's not the QB that is good/great, it's the system.

This entire concept makes NO sense to me. EVERY QB, especially in the NFL, plays in a fantastically complicated offensive "system" that is DESIGNED to make him look good. Coaches and players spend hundreds of hours every week (combined) analyzing weaknesses in the opposing defense and trying to adapt their "system" and plays to take advantage of the weaknesses.

The only way this makes any sense is to suggest that a system QB isn't as good as a "non-system" QB in the sense that when the play breaks down, the QB can't improvise. In other words, he's not a Favre or Elway.

The severe problem with this statement is that there are very, very few Favre's or Elways. If by "system QB" you mean that he's not a highly athletic runner who also has a shotgun, accurate arm and is one of the top 10 QBs in history, then that's no insult at all. It applies to 99.9% of the quarterbacks in NFL history.

I note, also, that if this is what you mean by "system QB", then Marino, Brady, Manning, Fouts, and god-knows how many other awesome QBs who couldn't run well are also "just system QBs" and therefore subject to insult.

I don't get it. Am I missing something?

I honestly would like to see this phrase disappear from NFL-fan lexicon. It's worthless as a statement.

[chiefscafan]

hey bronco fans that are proclaiming how great elway was compared to joe montana remember the monday night game. The look on Elway and the rest of the bronco team's faces when joe won the game in denver with no time left was priceless.

4 superbowls fellas

2 superbowls

enough said and by the way elway had great tallent around him during those losses too. He just couldn't win the superbowl till '97 which I still think the game against us was very shaddy.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by chiefscafan

hey bronco fans that are proclaiming how great elway was compared to joe montana remember the monday night game. The look on Elway and the rest of the bronco team's faces when joe won the game in denver with no time left was priceless.

4 superbowls fellas

2 superbowls

enough said and by the way elway had great tallent around him during those losses too. He just couldn't win the superbowl till '97 which I still think the game against us was very shaddy.

It is probably best you don't post that much, come back when your football knowledge has grown.
It's perfectly okay to be a blind homer (if you really think of Montana as a Chief although KC is just where he came to die) especially on your own board but it doesn't translate well to a factual conversation. Len Dawson was 10x the QB for KC that Montana ever was when he was a Chief.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by chiefscafan

hey bronco fans that are proclaiming how great elway was compared to joe montana remember the monday night game. The look on Elway and the rest of the bronco team's faces when joe won the game in denver with no time left was priceless.

4 superbowls fellas

2 superbowls

enough said and by the way elway had great tallent around him during those losses too. He just couldn't win the superbowl till '97 which I still think the game against us was very shaddy.

You're reeruned for a number of reasons...

First off, in every SB game coached by Dan Reeves, the opposing team's QB was the SB MVP. Simms, Williams, Montana, Elway (fitting end)

Elway had good talent, not great in the mid/late 80s. You can't compare the skill players from those teams to what Joe had and say they were equal.

Yes, I remember the Monday night game you referenced... I also remember the Sunday game in Denver the previous season b/t Elway and Montana. I was at the game... Elway won with a 4th quarter comeback that was spectacular.

Again - both players are true greatness, the type of greatness that only a few QBs have achieved.

Elway is still the only QB to start in 5 SBs... yes, he lost 3, but again... not many other QBs could have led those teams to the title game. Elway never had a complete team around him and when you look back at the player comments from those teams ... Reeves never installed a game plan until they arrived at the SB city. Preparation wasn't the greatest and that goes on the coach.

All you have to do is look at Elway's production under Reeves (controlled and lacking skill players) to what he did when Shanahan took over. It's crazy.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by vailpass

You're frigging kidding me right? You picture Elway with the weapons Montana had and tell me how many rings he would have won.

As many as Montana, perhaps, but NO MORE. NFC was awesome back then. And you're not going to convince me that Elway was actually better than Montana. As good, MAYBE, but not better.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

As many as Montana, perhaps, but NO MORE. NFC was awesome back then. And you're not going to convince me that Elway was actually better than Montana. As good, MAYBE, but not better.

Not saying Elway was better, saying Elway was better suited to win with less talent around him than Montana.

Joe was the master of the West Coast System no question about it. He played that O like a violin; with the talent he had around him it was a work of art.

John had more ability to put a team on his back by creating plays where there were none, making ungodly cross field throws, etc. Each was something to behold.

As to your NFC love, well, what can I say? At least you are man enough to admit your fears

We have to find a way to work in some Steve Grogan love; I used to dig watching him play.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

As many as Montana, perhaps, but NO MORE. NFC was awesome back then. And you're not going to convince me that Elway was actually better than Montana. As good, MAYBE, but not better.

That's the beauty of these debates... nobody knows.

If you were to simply trade QBs b/t Denver and SF during the 80s... would either team be better or worse off? I dunno... I don't see the 49ers dropping in value at all, but I can't say that I see Joe leading the Broncos to 3 out of 4 SBs.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by vailpass

Not saying Elway was better, saying Elway was better suited to win with less talent around him than Montana.

Joe was the master of the West Coast System no question about it. He played that O like a violin; with the talent he had around him it was a work of art.

John had more ability to put a team on his back by creating plays where there were none, making ungodly cross field throws, etc. Each was something to behold.

As to your NFC love, well, what can I say? At least you are man enough to admit your fears

We have to find a way to work in some Steve Grogan love; I used to dig watching him play.

Grogs was fun. Tough as nails.

Didn't love the NFC, just recognizing reality. They dominated the whole decade. Skins, Niners, Giants, Bears were in one gruop, and the rest of the NFL was in another.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Grogs was fun. Tough as nails.

Didn't love the NFC, just recognizing reality. They dominated the whole decade. Skins, Niners, Giants, Bears were in one gruop, and the rest of the NFL was in another.

Sam Bam Cunningham, Russ Francis, Stanley Morgan....Grogan had some good years.

Yeah, I really liked watching da Bears when they were kicking ass.

[banyon]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

So....back to the basics.

"System QB" means any QB not named Favre, Elway, and maybe Montana.

Great -- what a dumb f**king term. Remind me to blast anyone who ever uses it in that type of context.

The ONLY definition of that term I've seen on here that makes any sense at all is for a college QB who is from a ridiculously wide open system that results in crazy stats for a QB who is doomed to fail in the NFL because that system can't work at the pro level.

I thought the guy who gave the example of the Spurrier QB's was right on. Wuerffel, Grossman, Dean, Doug Johnson.

Basically Spurrier did not trust his QB's to make reads very much. In his genius, he would tell his QB's, "I'm calling the play, you just throw the ball where I'm telling you to". Then he would draw up the play and point out where the QB was supposed to throw when the shifts and patterns had been run. When those QB's got to the league, they weren't used to reading and reacting to Defenses when things broke down.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Grogs was fun. Tough as nails.

Didn't love the NFC, just recognizing reality. They dominated the whole decade. Skins, Niners, Giants, Bears were in one gruop, and the rest of the NFL was in another.

There's no denying how dominant the NFC was during that time.

The NFC dominated for 13 years... 1985 (SB XIX) through 1997 (SB XXI)

During those 13 seasons, 7 AFC teams reached the SB and lost:

Bills - 4
Broncos - 3
Patriots - 2
Bengals / Dolphins / Chargers / Steelers -

The Broncos broke that streak when they defeated the Packers.

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Which is why I think the phrase "system QB" is meaningless. It's just a useless phrase when applying it to a NFL QB, especially since it' smeant to be derogatory.

If having a system QB means being stuck with Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, then sign me up for having a system QB.

I agree. In the NFL it is meaningless. In the NFL you should be building a system around your franchise QB, or finding a player that fits into your system. It's all about the system in the NFL. You don't want Pennington trying to run the Colts offense and you don't need Manning to run an offense that Herm would like in KC.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by banyon

I thought the guy who gave the example of the Spurrier QB's was right on. Wuerffel, Grossman, Dean, Doug Johnson.

Basically Spurrier did not trust his QB's to make reads very much. In his genius, he would tell his QB's, "I'm calling the play, you just throw the ball where I'm telling you to". Then he would draw up the play and point out where the QB was supposed to throw when the shifts and patterns had been run. When those QB's got to the league, they weren't used to reading and reacting to Defenses when things broke down.

That's what I think of when someone says "System QB".

If a QB can have repeatable success in various offenses, he's not a system guy. Guys like those mentioned above are DEFINITIONS of system QB.

Guys like Aikman... they're not system guys, they're not put a team on their back guys... those are QBs that rock when the talent is amazing (early 90s) and suck when the talent is average (mid/late 90s).

[Chiefs_5627]

Originally Posted by vailpass

You're frigging kidding me right? You picture Elway with the weapons Montana had and tell me how many rings he would have won.

You talk like Joe had Jerry through all 4 rings...NOPE. He was successful with big old threat Dwight Clark and no name RBs. Try again. Go ahead and tell me how many of his first sb team are household names.


Offense
WR 87 Dwight Clark (8)
LT 78 Lindsey Mason (8)
LG 8 John Ayers (8)
C 56 Fred Quillan (9)
RG 51 Randy Cross (8)
RT 71 Keith Fahnhorst (9
TE 86 Charle Young (8)
WR 88 Freddie Solomon (6)
QB 16 Joe Montana (8)
RB 25 Jeff Moore (4)/
30 Bill Ring (1)
RB 49 Earl Cooper (5)/
30 Bill Ring (2)

Defense
LE 79 Jim Stuckey (7)/
65 Lawrence Pillers (2)
NT 67 Pete Kugler (4)/
75 John Harty (4)/
65 Lawrence Pillers (1)
RE 75 John Harty (3)/
65 Lawrence Pillers (2)/
76 Dwaine Board (1)/
79 Jim Stuckey (1)/
67 Pete Kugler (1)/
72 Jeff Stover (1)
LOLB 59 Willie Harper (5)/
53 Milt McColl (2)
LILB 64 Jack Reynolds (8)
RILB 55 Bob Horn (6)/
57 Dan Bunz (2)/
64 Jack Reynolds (1)
ROLB 58 Keena Turner (9)
LCB 42 Ronnie Lott (9)
RCB 21 Eric Wright (7)
SS 27 Carlton Williamson (8)
FS 22 Dwight Hicks (9)

[Tribal Warfare]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Which is why I think the phrase "system QB" is meaningless. It's just a useless phrase when applying it to a NFL QB, especially since it' smeant to be derogatory.

If having a system QB means being stuck with Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, then sign me up for having a system QB.

Tom Brady, is a guy who was in the right place at the right time, KC would've destroyed his development

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by Chiefs_5627

You talk like Joe had Jerry through all 4 rings...NOPE. He was successful with big old threat Dwight Clark and no name RBs. Try again. Go ahead and tell me how many of his first sb team are household names.


Offense
WR 87 Dwight Clark (8)
LT 78 Lindsey Mason (8)
LG 8 John Ayers (8)
C 56 Fred Quillan (9)
RG 51 Randy Cross (8)
RT 71 Keith Fahnhorst (9
TE 86 Charle Young (8)
WR 88 Freddie Solomon (6)
QB 16 Joe Montana (8)
RB 25 Jeff Moore (4)/
30 Bill Ring (1)
RB 49 Earl Cooper (5)/
30 Bill Ring (2)

Defense
LE 79 Jim Stuckey (7)/
65 Lawrence Pillers (2)
NT 67 Pete Kugler (4)/
75 John Harty (4)/
65 Lawrence Pillers (1)
RE 75 John Harty (3)/
65 Lawrence Pillers (2)/
76 Dwaine Board (1)/
79 Jim Stuckey (1)/
67 Pete Kugler (1)/
72 Jeff Stover (1)
LOLB 59 Willie Harper (5)/
53 Milt McColl (2)
LILB 64 Jack Reynolds (8)
RILB 55 Bob Horn (6)/
57 Dan Bunz (2)/
64 Jack Reynolds (1)
ROLB 58 Keena Turner (9)
LCB 42 Ronnie Lott (9)
RCB 21 Eric Wright (7)
SS 27 Carlton Williamson (8)
FS 22 Dwight Hicks (9)

That defense was one of the most dominant of the decade and carried the '49ers that year. SF played a ball-control, dink&dunk offense with Clark catching a lot of short balls and Solomon going long every now and again. Montana played his role within the system very well.

Again, Montana was a fine QB for the offense he was in; however he was not the kind of QB (Favre, Elway) who could carry a team on his own.

Why is it so hard to see this? Why do you take it as some sort of insult?