Chiefs Why people are disappointed: Exhibit A - Talent Evaluation - Page 7

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-14-2009, 11:24 AM

Since there seems to be several myths, excuses and some flat-out lies about why some folks are pissed off about this team right now, I thought I'd put together a few threads explaining, as clearly as I can, where people are coming from.

One of the bigger excuses is the infamous, "Pioli inherited a shitty team."

Let me make this clear: I do not disagree.

However, that doesn't excuse the Executive of the Decade for the team being no better now than it was this time last year - and you could make an argument that it is worse.

And one of the reasons why this team still sucks is simple:

The Executive of the Decade missed BADLY on talent evaluation.

I just spent a few minutes researching the transactions Pioli has made since taking the job, and it's even worse than I originally thought.

Counting draft picks, trades and signings, Pioli is responsible for FORTY FIVE new players to this organization.

And of these 45, it's fair to say that only Succop and Chambers are clear upgrades to their predecessors.

Two. Out of forty-five.

That's a whopping 4% success rate.

I'm sorry, but blaming Herm here is ridiculous. The best players on this team are Herm's players.

Looking at the current roster - including the active roster, PS and IR - 54% of the players currently in this organization are Pioli's.

Exactly half of the current starting 22 are Pioli's.

And this team is ONE win better than a 2008 squad that featured Tyler ****ing Thigpen at QB, and employed Gunther Cunningham as the DC.

With the majority being Pioli's hand-picked players.

Let the excuses flow like fine wine.

Discus.

This ought to be fun - let's hit that Millionth post.

Titty Meat · 12-14-2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I bitched and bitched about Pollard being misused. Finally, I figured that it couldn't be all on coaches, and claimed him a bust as a safety (although still a PB-caliber STer).

I was wrong. I should have just stuck to my initial belief.

Thank you. And yes he was good on special teams.

rtmike · 12-14-2009, 03:59 PM

One thing about that character over talent I read on the first page.

We're not reading about Chiefs players getting DUI's, bitch slappin' chicks & so on all the way up here in the NW anymore.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 12-14-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billay

I would like to see posts where people were saying "If only we had good coaches Pollard would be a good player." Because from what I remember everyone was glad that the new regime was bringing in competiton to take Pollards spot.

Since Mike Brown leads the team in tackles does that mean he's not a bad tackler?

Mike Brown actually tackles fine.

The problem is putting himself in position to MAKE a tackle, because he takes HORRIBLE angles.

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-14-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

The thing is, the two statements I bolded (which I both believe to be true) contradict each other. Something just doesn't add up here.

Yes, that appears to be true.

I honestly believe that the lack of spending in free-agency was due to improperly evaluating the talent on the roster.

How else can you explain Niswanger starting at center to this day? Or the lack of a big back for short-yardage carries? Or completely ignoring the offensive line?

1. Clark Hunt spent $75 million out of pocket. I declared that free-agency would be next to non-existent at that point.
2. Scott Pioli was hired, gave Cassel a $60 million dollar contract and Tyson Jackson a huge contract (about $30 million upfront for both).
3. The Chiefs didn't sign any high or even mid-priced free agents.

So, either Hunt mandated that the Chiefs not spend much money in free agency (unlikely) or Pioli & Company improperly evaluated the existing talent and the end result was no "real" money spent in free agency because the Chiefs had enough talent (in his opinion) to compete in 2009.

I'm going with the latter.

beach tribe · 12-14-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pestilence

It's going to take a lot to make me happy this offseason. And yes I know that the Chiefs don't give two shits about how I feel or what I want....but I'd like to see 75% of this shit happen.

1. Fire Pendergast and bring in a competent 3-4 defensive coordinator.

2. Hire an offensive coordinator and let him call the plays.

3. Hire a QB coach and actually let him coach the QBs.

4. Bring in competition at the QB position. And I mean actual competition...not another QB that will get 10 reps throughout the offseason and then Cassel gets the job handed to him.

5. Draft a ****ing playmaker in the 1st round. I better not see a defensive lineman or offensive lineman with a top 5 pick.

6. Be active in Free Agency. I know that if it's uncapped that there won't be a lot (if any) good free agents out there. But if it is a capped year....then we better be filling ****ing holes this offseason.

I think me actually believing this is going to happen is the reason I still have hope for this regime.
If at least 4 out of six of those things don't happen, I'm joining the lynch mob.
Another is Krumrie must be gone. I can't handle another season of him on the payroll.

chiefzilla1501 · 12-15-2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Let the excuses flow like fine wine.

Discus.

This ought to be fun - let's hit that Millionth post.

Pioli has been pretty lousy and he has to earn our trust. And he should certainly be taken to task for not knowing Cassel a little better before trading for him. But I think you and a lot of people have a completely skewed understanding of how talent evaluation works. Pioli is only as good as the scouting information fed to him. Pioli didn't have his guy or his scouts feeding him info going into the draft. And his guy didn't have nearly enough time to feed him the right info going into the free agency period.

These aren't excuses. They are reasons. I'm not saying he deserves a free pass. But I think he deserves at least the 2010 offseason before we can really judge what he's capable of. He can compete for the best coaches and assistants. He'll have had a full year of his own scouts and his own Director of College Scouting feeding him draft data. He'll have had a Pro Personnel Director who has had a full year to self-scout and also do an extensive analysis around the league. And he won't have to deal with a ton of administrative house-cleaning/transitional items he had to deal with in January (people forget that the draft was one of a million things he had to deal with in the early stages).

If he ****s up this draft and continues to make horrible decisions, including inbreeding the organization with former Pats players, then I'll agree with you. And I agree with you that his track record so far is really shitty. I just don't agree (yet) that these are signs that Pioli has no idea what he's doing. And by the way, I 100% agree with pestilence's checklist of things he needs to do. If he doesn't accomplish most of that list and then some, I'm more than happy to rip him a new asshole. Not literally, of course.

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-15-2009, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Pioli has been pretty lousy and he has to earn our trust. And he should certainly be taken to task for not knowing Cassel a little better before trading for him. But I think you and a lot of people have a completely skewed understanding of how talent evaluation works. Pioli is only as good as the scouting information fed to him. Pioli didn't have his guy or his scouts feeding him info going into the draft. And his guy didn't have nearly enough time to feed him the right info going into the free agency period.

You are absolutely, without a ****ing doubt, full of SHIT.

Please, leave this discussion.

Your intent is to make excuses for a man earning $5 million dollars a year whose past 11 months have been a complete and utter failure.

Please, go back to the Coalition or wherever the **** you came.

It's becoming regoddamndickulous.

chiefzilla1501 · 12-15-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

You are absolutely, without a ****ing doubt, full of SHIT.

Please, leave this discussion.

Your intent is to make excuses for a man earning $5 million dollars a year whose past 12 months has been a complete failure.

Please, go back to the Coalition or wherever the **** you came.

It's becoming regoddamndickulous.

FACT: Pioli conducted the draft with Carl Peterson's scouts and Personnel Directors
FACT: Pioli hired Ray Farmer, Director of Pro Personnel (the most important guy in the organization when it comes to scouting players from other teams) on June 7th
FACT: Pioli hired Phil Emery, Director of College Scouting (the most important person in terms of college scouting and easily the second most important person outside of Pioli as it relates to draft decisions) AFTER the draft was conducted

That's not being full of shit. Those are facts and they are indisputable. He drafted with someone else' lame duck scouts. He drafted with Peterson's Director of College Scouting. He conducted combine evaluations with Carl Peterson's scouting network. He opened the free agency period with Carl Peterson's Director of Pro Personnel. Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong on any of this.

Like I said, if he ****s up in 2010, then we're in really big trouble. And I've said repeatedly that I hate the decisions Pioli has made so far. But give me a ****ing break. I'm not going to overreact and say that despite the million major front offices changes made in the past year that Pioli should have had everything figure out by now.

**DaneMcCloud** · 12-15-2009, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

FACT: Pioli conducted the draft with Carl Peterson's scouts and Personnel Directors
FACT: Pioli hired Ray Farmer, Director of Pro Personnel (the most important guy in the organization when it comes to scouting players from other teams) on June 7th
FACT: Pioli hired Phil Emery, Director of College Scouting (the most important person in terms of college scouting and easily the second most important person outside of Pioli as it relates to draft decisions) AFTER the draft was conducted

That's not being full of shit. Those are facts and they are indisputable. He drafted with someone else' lame duck scouts. He drafted with Peterson's Director of College Scouting. He conducted combine evaluations with Carl Peterson's scouting network. He opened the free agency period with Carl Peterson's Director of Pro Personnel. Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong on any of this.

Like I said, if he ****s up in 2010, then we're in really big trouble. And I've said repeatedly that I hate the decisions Pioli has made so far. But give me a ****ing break. I'm not going to overreact and say that despite the million major front offices changes made in the past year that Pioli should have had everything figure out by now.

Again, you're full of shit.

If you think that the Executive of the Millennium didn't trust his scouts and made not one, not two, not three but SEVEN poor draft choices based on their opinions and their opinions alone, you're a ****ing MORON.

Go the **** away.

And STAY away.

Blick · 12-15-2009, 05:06 AM

Does anybody remember the contract the Rams gave Jason Brown? They gave him 37.5 million with 20 in guarantees. People here would have gone apeshit if we threw 40 million at a ****ing center.

With that said, I agree with most of the anti-Pioli/Haley stuff.

**notorious** · 12-15-2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Extra Point

The underused roll-out pass, bootleg option, and inside slant are some things that Haley hasn't implemented.

AMEN

Who used the roll out quite a bit?...............

One guess, he used to be the OC here.

**notorious** · 12-15-2009, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

FACT: Pioli conducted the draft with Carl Peterson's scouts and Personnel Directors
FACT: Pioli hired Ray Farmer, Director of Pro Personnel (the most important guy in the organization when it comes to scouting players from other teams) on June 7th
FACT: Pioli hired Phil Emery, Director of College Scouting (the most important person in terms of college scouting and easily the second most important person outside of Pioli as it relates to draft decisions) AFTER the draft was conducted

I find it hard to believe that a new GM would hinge the beginning of his career on a bunch of talent scouts that were on a team full of failure.

If he did, then it speaks volumes on Pioli's decision making ability.

**morphius** · 12-15-2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notorious

I find it hard to believe that a new GM would hinge the beginning of his career on a bunch of talent scouts that were on a team full of failure.

If he did, then it speaks volumes on Pioli's decision making ability.

Maybe you could explain how he was going to replace a full scouting staff before a draft, since most scouts contracts don't run out until after the draft. So he couldn't go out and hire people from other teams, and you can't hire people off the street because how many people off the street spend the year flying around to all the different teams and watching tape on players.

**dirk digler** · 12-15-2009, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

FACT: Pioli conducted the draft with Carl Peterson's scouts and Personnel Directors
FACT: Pioli hired Ray Farmer, Director of Pro Personnel (the most important guy in the organization when it comes to scouting players from other teams) on June 7th
FACT: Pioli hired Phil Emery, Director of College Scouting (the most important person in terms of college scouting and easily the second most important person outside of Pioli as it relates to draft decisions) AFTER the draft was conducted

That's not being full of shit. Those are facts and they are indisputable. He drafted with someone else' lame duck scouts. He drafted with Peterson's Director of College Scouting. He conducted combine evaluations with Carl Peterson's scouting network. He opened the free agency period with Carl Peterson's Director of Pro Personnel. Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong on any of this.

Like I said, if he ****s up in 2010, then we're in really big trouble. And I've said repeatedly that I hate the decisions Pioli has made so far. But give me a ****ing break. I'm not going to overreact and say that despite the million major front offices changes made in the past year that Pioli should have had everything figure out by now.

Pioli didn't hire Ray Farmer he was already here and kept his same position. Just want to clarify that.

beach tribe · 12-15-2009, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Again, you're full of shit.

If you think that the Executive of the Millennium didn't trust his scouts and made not one, not two, not three but SEVEN poor draft choices based on their opinions and their opinions alone, you're a ****ing MORON.

Go the **** away.

And STAY away.

Yeah. Everybody that doesn't agree should LEAVE. This is not a place for discussion.

You know there's really only room for about 6 people on this board.

12-14-2009, 11:24 AM
OnTheWarpath15 MVP Join Date: Sep 2005 Casino cash: $2031115	Why people are disappointed: Exhibit A - Talent Evaluation Since there seems to be several myths, excuses and some flat-out lies about why some folks are pissed off about this team right now, I thought I'd put together a few threads explaining, as clearly as I can, where people are coming from. One of the bigger excuses is the infamous, "Pioli inherited a shitty team." Let me make this clear: I do not disagree. However, that doesn't excuse the Executive of the Decade for the team being no better now than it was this time last year - and you could make an argument that it is worse. And one of the reasons why this team still sucks is simple: The Executive of the Decade missed BADLY on talent evaluation. I just spent a few minutes researching the transactions Pioli has made since taking the job, and it's even worse than I originally thought. Counting draft picks, trades and signings, Pioli is responsible for FORTY FIVE new players to this organization. And of these 45, it's fair to say that only Succop and Chambers are clear upgrades to their predecessors. Two. Out of forty-five. That's a whopping 4% success rate. I'm sorry, but blaming Herm here is ridiculous. The best players on this team are Herm's players. Looking at the current roster - including the active roster, PS and IR - 54% of the players currently in this organization are Pioli's. Exactly half of the current starting 22 are Pioli's. And this team is ONE win better than a 2008 squad that featured Tyler ****ing Thigpen at QB, and employed Gunther Cunningham as the DC. With the majority being Pioli's hand-picked players. Let the excuses flow like fine wine. Discus. This ought to be fun - let's hit that Millionth post.
Posts: 60,758

12-14-2009, 03:59 PM	#92
rtmike union paraplegic organizer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: western Kansas Casino cash: $8590000	One thing about that character over talent I read on the first page. We're not reading about Chiefs players getting DUI's, bitch slappin' chicks & so on all the way up here in the NW anymore.
Posts: 3,116

12-15-2009, 05:06 AM	#100
Blick Veteran Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: South KC Casino cash: $10004900	Does anybody remember the contract the Rams gave Jason Brown? They gave him 37.5 million with 20 in guarantees. People here would have gone apeshit if we threw 40 million at a ****ing center. With that said, I agree with most of the anti-Pioli/Haley stuff.
Posts: 1,209