Did y'all catch Squirmin Herman's spot on ESPN about Shady?

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

But yet nobody bats an eye when people over-the-top rip on his legacy all the time. Completely at random. In ways we never did with actual ****-ups like Romeo.

Romeo was a puppet of the Pioli Reich. I have many many Pioli rants on this website. But you keep bringing up Romeo. Romeo wasn't the problem Pioli was. In quite the similar vein Herm was the problem because Herm was ****ing horrible and made the franchise a completely uncompetitive ****ing joke.

I even said in my initial post that you think is absurd that Pioli was technically worse. But it didn't matter nearly as much because Herm had already made the ****ing franchise a joke. A mother****ing joke. Our Chiefs. A joke.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy

I'm a little disturbed at the passion and time invested over Herm's legacy.

It is appalling to me that anyone would call his time here anything other than catastrophic.

[FloridaMan88]

Herm set the Chiefs franchise back 10 years.

For someone on this board to still defend him is disgraceful.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KCChiefsFan88

Herm set the Chiefs franchise back 10 years.

For someone on this board to still defend him is disgraceful.

10 years? What a ****ing joke.

Look at the roster I showed above which is what Herm left behind. A strong 2009 offseason where we draft Sanchez (average, but still a mile better than what we had). $57M to bring in 3 or 4 bonafide quality starters. And hitting on 1 or 2 other draft picks, and that team is very competitive in 2009 for a legit coach, which Herm was not. If Reid and Dorsey joined forces in 2009, they could have easily turned that team into a decent team by year 1.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

10 years? What a ****ing joke.

Look at the roster I showed above which is what Herm left behind. A strong 2009 offseason where we draft Sanchez (average, but still a mile better than what we had). $57M to bring in 3 or 4 bonafide quality starters. And hitting on 1 or 2 other draft picks, and that team is very competitive in 2009 for a legit coach, which Herm was not. If Reid and Dorsey joined forces in 2009, they could have easily turned that team into a decent team by year 1.

You are hung up on the idea that a few guys will TURN IT ALL AROUND. It doesn't. You can have 22 good guys on O and D and 3 good specialists, but you still won't be good. It takes good ST guys (Which Herm was just abysmal at) as well as some depth because most of the players aren't playing every snap.

Herm wasn't even close to getting a decent roster composed.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

No, it's not easy. But you HAVE to get production out low income guys to have a decent team in a salary cap sport. Herm did not do that. Herm ****ing sucked shit. His team that he built sucked shit. He did not do us any favors. He was horrible. You refuse to admit it.

The QB thing, I don't know why you're hung up on it. Herm had to do something. He blew a third rounder on a guy that was horrible. Won 0 NFL games ever. Dorsey spent 2 seconds on a guy that is servicable. Either one is very good, but to act like Herm did the better thing is just absurd.

I didn't say Herm did the better thing. I said that when Dorsey took over, there was an urgency to win now When Herm took over, there was an urgency to tear apart and rebuild. An Alex Smith like trade probably didn't make sense during the Herm years in way it did when Dorsey took over.

This must be where you and I disagree. The roster that he filled out was shit. He had dudes that flat out couldn't play at a lot of positions. We are looking at a competent personnel guy fill out the Chiefs in 3 years after an abysmal season. Look at the depth on the Chiefs team vs what it was in 08. It's not even funny. Herm hit on some guys. Whoo hoo. Any personnel guy can hit on some guys. Herm just filled the roster with complete hogshit outside of your 10 guys or whatever number you want to pick and say, "LOOK AT WHUT THE HERMZ DID, GUIZ". The team was shit.

Herm found a few guys, sure. But pointing to those guys as the basis for telling me I'm absurd for saying he wrecked the franchise is complete and utter shit. As as been pointed out, any football guy can come up with a few dudes, even the master of team trashing Pioli. Finding 6 guys that are good and a few more that belong on a roster does not excuse the complete and utter ****-up he dragged this franchise through. Are ways good teams turn the roster over and the good teams don't go 2-14.

Did Herm do an amazing job? No. But wreck is an absurd word. Wreck implies that he left Pioli with a mess. He inherited a mess and left a really good situation for Pioli.

Sure, not going out and over-spending on free agents is a good thing. I'm not saying he should have. You keep thinking I am, but I'm not. You can find FA's that have VALUE. Similar to a draft prospect, you can look at tape of a FA, and say I can work with that in my system. They don't have to be stars, but they have to outperform their contract. That is how good teams run FA's, save for Green Bay that never brings anybody in.

Herm ****ing failed miserably at personnel because he could not bring in an FA that was worth a shit. Sure he ran 120 or whatever the number was off UDFA's through here and all that yielded....Dantrell Savage. Let's not pretend he didn't take a bunch of swings and whiffs. Like that goddamned UDFA WR that he wanted to run the option for him (**** Herm. Seriously.).

Herm failed miserably at constructing a roster that could be competitive. You can whine about DV, despite the remarkably higher number of guys that went on to play 3 years than Herm had. You can whine about the cap, that he had 3 years to fix. You can whine about Herm being misunderstood and that the ENTIRE NFL was missing the boat on "good" players like Tank Tyler and Turk McBride. You can whine about having to turn the roster over, despite other teams doing it and not being a ****ing joke. But the bottom line is this:

tl;dr Herm failed at building a roster that was even remotely close to competing. **** Herm.

Most GMs can hide blemishes on the roster by making a few big FA moves over 3 years, but also sprinkling in a ton of small moves. While adding Howard, Parker, etc... is brilliant, we also spent a shitload on Vance Walker, Fasano, etc.... So overall, we spent a lot of money on these stopgap small moves in total. I agree that we didn't do great from the FA haul. But it's also unfair to compare him to, say, Pioli who inherited $57M in cap space. $57M allows you a lot of wiggle room to **** up on guys like Winston and Boss and Breaston.

So because Herm had no cap room to work with by 2008, how many of these small moves did we hold off on making that could have hidden a few of our blemishes? Given Carl Peterson's history of trying to put lipstick on a pig (arguably, probably the only reason we signed Huard to that ridiculous contract), I think we're really undermining how radical a direction it was for Herm to say enough with this band-aid bullshit, let's do a true rebuild. Over the many years in Kansas City, it is one of the only times we made the bold move to commit to a rebuild of this size.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I didn't say Herm did the better thing. I said that when Dorsey took over, there was an urgency to win now When Herm took over, there was an urgency to tear apart and rebuild. An Alex Smith like trade probably didn't make sense during the Herm years in way it did when Dorsey took over.

So Herm was horrible. Got it. And finding a QB when you don't have one always makes sense.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Did Herm do an amazing job? No. But wreck is an absurd word. Wreck implies that he left Pioli with a mess. He inherited a mess and left a really good situation for Pioli.

WTF? Really good position? I think there were 42 new guys on the 53 man roster in Pioli's first year. Yay. He had some cap money to work with BUT THERE WAS NO TALENT. That is a ****ing wreck.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Most GMs can hide blemishes on the roster by making a few big FA moves over 3 years, but also sprinkling in a ton of small moves. While adding Howard, Parker, etc... is brilliant, we also spent a shitload on Vance Walker, Fasano, etc.... So overall, we spent a lot of money on these stopgap small moves in total. I agree that we didn't do great from the FA haul. But it's also unfair to compare him to, say, Pioli who inherited $57M in cap space. $57M allows you a lot of wiggle room to **** up on guys like Winston and Boss and Breaston.

So because Herm had no cap room to work with by 2008, how many of these small moves did we hold off on making that could have hidden a few of our blemishes? Given Carl Peterson's history of trying to put lipstick on a pig (arguably, probably the only reason we signed Huard to that ridiculous contract), I think we're really undermining how radical a direction it was for Herm to say enough with this band-aid bullshit, let's do a true rebuild. Over the many years in Kansas City, it is one of the only times we made the bold move to commit to a rebuild of this size.

I'm not going to go through and find guys they should have signed. But if he were a good personnel man he would have found someone that could play. That's the bottom line. They find guys that can play.

Your problem is you drank the Herm Koolaid about rebuilds. Good teams don't need to suck awful shit to turnover their roster. Even with tremendous cap restrictions, that the Chiefs faced this season, Dorsey still managed to make this team better than last years team.

Teams that go all in and get early picks aren't rebuilding they just blow nutsack. Teams are built through the depth and bottom half of the roster not a couple elite guys. It goes back to finding production for value of the cap. By 2008 Herm had enough cap to go find some dudes that can play. And again, they don't have to be expensive ones. Good talent evaluators find guys that outplay their contract.

He did ****ing none of that. He found a small number of guys that could play and huge number of guys that couldn't. He wrecked the ****ing franchise. He took over a contender and transformed it into a 2 win ****ing team. So what he got a few guys that could play. The team was total ****ing trash. Because he wrecked it.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

WTF? Really good position? I think there were 42 new guys on the 53 man roster in Pioli's first year. Yay. He had some cap money to work with BUT THERE WAS NO TALENT. That is a ****ing wreck.

I'll repeat, this is the team Pioli could have rolled with in 2009:

QB - Sanchez (draft at #3)
RB - Charles / Battle / Cox
OL - Albert / Waters / Wade Smith / De la Puenta / Barry Richardson
WR - Bowe / nobody
TE - Gonzalez

DL - Hali / Dorsey / Edwards / Turk
LB - DJ / Pat Thomas / Demorrio Williams
CB - Carr / Flowers
S - Page / Pollard

K - Barth
P - Colquitt

Imaging bring in Haynesworth or Peppers. Vilma and/or Dansby. We had $57M to spend. Are you telling me this isn't the nucleus for a potentially pretty good team, even behind an average QB? That roster above is not a terrible one to inherit. Throw in the #3 pick in every round.

He took over a contender and transformed it into a 2 win ****ing team. So what he got a few guys that could play. The team was total ****ing trash. Because he wrecked it.

He didn't coach the contender to a playoff win in 2006. As I've said before, he wasn't a good game day coach. But that is total garbage to say he turned a contender into a 2-win team. That contender needed to be blown up. And make no mistake. It needed to be blown up. Not band-aided. Not fixed. It had to be blown up, and it took a bold decision to do it. And it should have saved us 3-5 years of painful rebuilding disguised as mediocrity but Pioli completely fumbled on it

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I'll repeat, this is the team Pioli could have rolled with in 2009:

QB - Sanchez (draft at #3)
RB - Charles / Battle / Cox
OL - Albert / Waters / Wade Smith / De la Puenta / Barry Richardson
WR - Bowe / nobody
TE - Gonzalez

DL - Hali / Dorsey / Edwards / Turk
LB - DJ / Pat Thomas / Demorrio Williams
CB - Carr / Flowers
S - Page / Pollard

K - Barth
P - Colquitt

Imaging bring in Haynesworth or Peppers. Vilma and/or Dansby. We had $57M to spend. Are you telling me this isn't the nucleus for a potentially pretty good team, even behind an average QB? That roster above is not a terrible one to inherit. Throw in the #3 pick in every round.


He didn't coach the contender to a playoff win in 2006. As I've said before, he wasn't a good game day coach. But that is total garbage to say he turned a contender into a 2-win team. That contender needed to be blown up. And make no mistake. It needed to be blown up. Not band-aided. Not fixed. It had to be blown up, and it took a bold decision to do it. And it should have saved us 3-5 years of painful rebuilding disguised as mediocrity but Pioli completely fumbled on it

Yeah. You don't just win with average starters. The rest of the team was a fire fire. Throwing a couple big name players at it doesn't change the fact that 10 or so guys that play significant snaps on offense defense and ST can't play. Go get some FA with your 57 M and you'll still have a team with no depth because Herm was a shit talent evaluator. For every Pollard you have to account for all the no name mother****ers he whiffed on. Just as you are bringing up about Dorsey. It takes more than 25 guys to make a team that's worth a ****. Especially if you're hangin your hat on players of Barry Rochardson caliber as the good guys.

Bottom line is this. If he were a good talent evaluator 3 years is enough time to get enough decent players in there to not stink it up to the tune of 14 losses.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Yeah. You don't just win with average starters. The rest of the team was a fire fire. Throwing a couple big name players at it doesn't change the fact that 10 or so guys that play significant snaps on offense defense and ST can't play. Go get some FA with your 57 M and you'll still have a team with no depth because Herm was a shit talent evaluator. For every Pollard you have to account for all the no name mother****ers he whiffed on. Just as you are bringing up about Dorsey. It takes more than 25 guys to make a team that's worth a ****. Especially if you're hangin your hat on players of Barry Rochardson caliber as the good guys.

Bottom line is this. If he were a good talent evaluator 3 years is enough time to get enough decent players in there to not stink it up to the tune of 14 losses.

So we all acknowledge that the Chiefs brought in about 9 guys who could start: Albert, Charles, Flowers, Carr, Bowe, Hali, Dorsey, Pollard, Barth, Page. 9 guys and 1 kicker in 3 years, with the majority of them being very good players at really difficult positions? That's a decent young haul for 3 years, especially considering we picked from #23 and #20 the first 2 years.

So we drafted well. We didn't bring in many good FAs because we weren't actively looking because of our cap situation. So from a personnel standpoint, the big knock is that he didn't pull in a lot of talent from the scrap heap. Fair point. But it's also not necessarily something that gets pinned on your coach very often.

Again, with a fair cap situation, we would have had more ability to bring in cheap free agents to fill in gaps. Had we gone after the FA market, we could have easily brought in maybe 4 or 5 starters in those 3 years. But we didn't do pursue those markets. So while I agree the free agent haul wasn't great, you can't compare that to a regime like Pioli's or Dorsey's that was actively looking to bring in free agents and spend money. Actually, an even bigger knock on Pioli is that for whatever dumb reason, he decided to sit on a bunch of money in 2009.

[FloridaMan88]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I'll repeat, this is the team Pioli could have rolled with in 2009: QB - Sanchez (draft at #3)

Herm was already wed to his QBOTF Broken Croyle.

You remember Broken Croyle, the QB that talent evaluator extraordinaire Herm handpicked to be the Chiefs QBOTF.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by KCChiefsFan88

Herm was already wed to his QBOTF Broken Croyle.

You remember Broken Croyle, the QB that talent evaluator extraordinaire Herm handpicked to be the Chiefs QBOTF.

That won 0 NFL games. Ever.

[BigRichard]

The argument is still going?

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by BigRichard

The argument is still going?

Zilla just said that Herm left the team in a "really good position"

By wrecking the ****ing franchise.

[Iconic]

Thread successfully derailed.