Chiefs Should the Chiefs sign Eric Berry for 5/70m with 38m guaranteed? - Page 9

**BossChief** · 02-03-2017, 08:51 AM

I'm not sure any safety is worth that much.

**notorious** · 02-03-2017, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19

Some of the greatest single-season sack performances have came at age 29 or later.

Strahan (22.5) 29 y/o (also had 18.5 at 31 y/o)
Jared Allen (22) 29 y/o
Robert Mathis (19.5) 32 y/o
DeMarcus Ware (20) 29 y/o

Those are just the 'elite' seasons, there is a multitude of top notch pass rushers who have hit the 14-18 sack range in their 30s, some multiple times.

Maybe I'm just overly optimistic, but I think there's a lot of good football left in Houston.

I think so, too. Well, I would call it "hope".

He has the tools, and after 2 years of being absent I "hope" he goes nuts on the opponents.

DJ's left nut · 02-03-2017, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19

Some of the greatest single-season sack performances have came at age 29 or later.

Strahan (22.5) 29 y/o (also had 18.5 at 31 y/o)
Jared Allen (22) 29 y/o
Robert Mathis (19.5) 32 y/o
DeMarcus Ware (20) 29 y/o

Those are just the 'elite' seasons, there is a multitude of top notch pass rushers who have hit the 14-18 sack range in their 30s, some multiple times.

Maybe I'm just overly optimistic, but I think there's a lot of good football left in Houston.

I didn't say impossible, I said the odds were long and they are. Realistically you have 3 years (28-30) to create 4.5 years worth of production. On a guy with a rebuilt knee that doesn't seem to be responding as well as most would like.

He could be very good - he COULD play to the level of an individual season remaining on his deal. He could also easily be Mario Williams and hit a wall at age 30. He could do both of those things.

But one thing he won't do is make up for the season and a half he's missed or the 2 playoff runs where he's been completely ineffective, absent the kind of impact Von Miller made against Carolina.

And again - those odds are pretty long.

O.city · 02-03-2017, 04:19 PM

It sucks, but of course it's a

Because chiefs

**SAUTO** · 02-03-2017, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Laz

I agree but paying any non-QB player 20 million per is problematic and we are getting ready to pay another non-QB big.

Houston and Berry will have approximately 37 million in cap space between them.

Houston - 22m
Berry - 15m

Even if Berry signs for 12m like some people argue, it's still 34m.

Where are you getting that 15 mil. Number?

**Meatloaf** · 02-03-2017, 05:08 PM

Another approach to take regarding the merits of signing Berry, Poe, etc to large contracts is to first decide who, on our current defensive roster, are the "building blocks" of the future and ensuring that we have the cap room available to keep these players. Who are the disrupters? Who do offensive coordinators have to scheme around? Who are the impact players? I'd offer that these include:

Houston
Jones
Peters
Berry

I just don't see Poe as a key piece. He's a nice player, but certainly doesn't stand out as a disruptor of all things offensive. Whereas the four guys noted above certainly appear to make a difference when they're on the field. With that, I'd lean towards signing Berry and letting Poe walk.....of course, you can't go "blank check" on any of these guys. That said, these are the key guys I'd make every effort to lock up contractwise.

RunKC · 02-03-2017, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Nah; in a year we'll be able to move on from some of our worst contracts, including DJ, Hali, Maclin and yes, Houston. If these guys don't show out in '17, they're gone in '18. And Hali and DJ are gone either way. I mean sure, you want to do well in the draft but EVERY team will fail if they're not supplementing their squad via the draft. They'll be in a much better cap position in the coming years than they are this season.

It's pretty much been an unmitigated disaster.

No it won't. The Chiefs needed to make hay on that deal in the first two years, before the backloading set in. Instead they got largely a zero return on their investment in those seasons and now he's toting around one of the largest cap figures in football. Even if he plays as one of the best players in football, he's not going to OUTPLAY the $$ he's due in the coming years and as such we'll stay at a defecit.

that contract has been a loser and as he enters his age 28 season next year, the odds of it looking any better in the coming seasons are pretty long. It was a deal the Chiefs had to sign and I don't fault them for it, but it hasn't worked out at all. Let's remember that even a HoF guy like Derrick Thomas was in steep decline by age 30 and he didn't have the knee issues that Houston has had.

It's unfortunate, but it's reality.

This is one of the best draft classes for pass rushers in recent years. Would be really nice to grab one as insurance.

kccrow · 02-03-2017, 05:34 PM

If you could do this instead of signing Berry and Poe, would you be on board?

Zach Brown - ILB - 4 years, 28 million, 15 million guaranteed (in line with Danny Trevathan/Brandon Marshall contracts last season). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 6 million.
Barry Church - SS - 3 years, 16 million, 6 million guaranteed (in line with Kurt Coleman contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 3.7 million.
Abry Jones - DT - 3 years, 10 million, 4 million guaranteed (Al Woods/Steve McClendon type contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 2.5 million.
Kevin Zeitler - RG - 5 years, 42 million, 18 million guaranteed (Brandon Brooks type contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 6 million.

Total estimated year 1 cap hit of 18.2 million.

What you get:

Brown is a physical presence in the box that sets the tone defensively and is rangy enough to stick with TEs and RBs in space.

Church is a physical, downhill box type safety which was Berry's primary role up until this season.

Jones is a tough run defender and clogs gaps, young and is coming into his own. Reminds me of Jaye Howard.

Zeitler is one of the best guards in the NFL.

You've effectively freed up your draft resources to do whatever the hell you desire. Draft BPA. Obviously would have to get a safety to take over for Church sooner than later, but you're looking at a guy the same age as Berry anyhow.

Just contemplating that letting both walk could be just as good of a call as keeping them.

**BossChief** · 02-03-2017, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kccrow

If that were the case, you'd have 68.8 with 23.4 guaranteed. 23.4 is a long ways from 38.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8387/tyrann-mathieu

[x]
8/2/2016: Signed a five-year, $62.5 million contract. The deal contains $35 million guaranteed,including a $15.5 million signing bonus. Mathieu is elgible for an annual $250,000 workout bonus throughout the contract's life. 2017: $4.75 million, 2018: $5.75 million (+ $5 million roster bonus), 2019-2020: $10.75 million, 2021: $9.25 million, 2022: Free Agent

pugsnotdrugs19 · 02-03-2017, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kccrow

If you could do this instead of signing Berry and Poe, would you be on board?

Zach Brown - ILB - 4 years, 28 million, 15 million guaranteed (in line with Danny Trevathan/Brandon Marshall contracts last season). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 6 million.
Barry Church - SS - 3 years, 16 million, 6 million guaranteed (in line with Kurt Coleman contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 3.7 million.
Abry Jones - DT - 3 years, 10 million, 4 million guaranteed (Al Woods/Steve McClendon type contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 2.5 million.
Kevin Zeitler - RG - 5 years, 42 million, 18 million guaranteed (Brandon Brooks type contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 6 million.

Total estimated year 1 cap hit of 18.2 million.

What you get:

Brown is a physical presence in the box that sets the tone defensively and is rangy enough to stick with TEs and RBs in space.

Church is a physical, downhill box type safety which was Berry's primary role up until this season.

Jones is a tough run defender and clogs gaps, young and is coming into his own. Reminds me of Jaye Howard.

Zeitler is one of the best guards in the NFL.

You've effectively freed up your draft resources to do whatever the hell you desire. Draft BPA. Obviously would have to get a safety to take over for Church sooner than later, but you're looking at a guy the same age as Berry anyhow.

Just contemplating that letting both walk could be just as good of a call as keeping them.

Wouldn't do it if it meant losing Berry. Those guys are nice players, but there's no telling how they would transition in KC.

In the NFL, strong leadership is so very important. Berry is our leader. He's the guy that everyone else looks to for motivation. He helps keep some of our players with crazier personalities in line (Peters specifically).

Continuity is a valuable thing in this league, and keeping Berry will be better for the locker room than letting guys like him and Poe leave only to bring in 4 new guys who have gave nothing to our orginazation.

Chiefshrink · 02-03-2017, 07:08 PM

Barry peaked this last season and IF we give him big $$ we will not get that playing value in return. More and more GMs are going the way of Bellichek and not paying the big superstar players up for a big pay day. Just let them go because you never get the play in return. Only one position gets that $$ and even TB takes pay cuts to get the right 53 on the squad.

Chiefshrink · 02-03-2017, 07:13 PM

Poe is done and we got the best years out of him IMHO. He will go the way of that NT from Tennessee that signed with Wash when Shanny was there and then pretty much disappeared on the field. Granted he didn't like the 3/4 d but still... this is what we are afraid of happening IF Poe gets the big $$.

kccrow · 02-03-2017, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8387/tyrann-mathieu

[x]
8/2/2016: Signed a five-year, $62.5 million contract. The deal contains $35 million guaranteed,including a $15.5 million signing bonus. Mathieu is elgible for an annual $250,000 workout bonus throughout the contract's life. 2017: $4.75 million, 2018: $5.75 million (+ $5 million roster bonus), 2019-2020: $10.75 million, 2021: $9.25 million, 2022: Free Agent

Wildly inconsistent reports on this contract.

But the 2 places that I look to both report 21.25 initially, fully guaranteed with other guarantee provisions in the contract. Notably, 2018 triggers another 13.75 million in guaranteed salaries (18/2019) and 5 million guaranteed roster bonus. Total potential guarantees of 40 million if technical.

Mr. Laz · 02-03-2017, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO

Where are you getting that 15 mil. Number?

franchise tag he won't sign is 13 million
Tyrann Mathieu got 12.5m

salary cap is jumping up
all salary number will jump up
Top Cornerback are making 15 million
Berry is pissed at the Chiefs for the contract stuff last year

Berry will look for more than Chiefs refused to pay him last year and to be the highest paid secondary player in the league.

imo Berry will be asking for 15-ish million and the Chiefs will fold and give it to him.

pugsnotdrugs19 · 02-03-2017, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Laz

franchise tag he won't sign is 13 million
Tyrann Mathieu got 12.5m

salary cap is jumping up
all salary number will jump up
Top Cornerback are making 15 million
Berry is pissed at the Chiefs for the contract stuff last year

Berry will look for more than Chiefs refused to pay him last year and to be the highest paid secondary player in the league.

imo Berry will be asking for 15-ish million and the Chiefs will fold and give it to him.

The only way Berry sees $15M+ is if he hits the open market and a team like Cleveland or SF with loads of cap room decide to get stupid.

The amount that the franchise tag equals has nothing to do with Berry saying he won't play under it. He just wants the security of along term deal, which he is an injury away from losing under the tag.

**SAUTO** · 02-03-2017, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Laz

franchise tag he won't sign is 13 million
Tyrann Mathieu got 12.5m

salary cap is jumping up
all salary number will jump up
Top Cornerback are making 15 million
Berry is pissed at the Chiefs for the contract stuff last year

Berry will look for more than Chiefs refused to pay him last year and to be the highest paid secondary player in the league.

imo Berry will be asking for 15-ish million and the Chiefs will fold and give it to him.

Ok so you made it up...

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02-03-2017, 08:51 AM
BossChief SuperBowl or bust Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: BF Iowa Casino cash: $-1725912	Should the Chiefs sign Eric Berry for 5/70m with 38m guaranteed? I'm not sure any safety is worth that much.
Posts: 47,901

02-03-2017, 04:19 PM	#123
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $-705936	It sucks, but of course it's a Because chiefs
Posts: 84,223

02-03-2017, 05:08 PM	#125
Meatloaf Supporter Join Date: Feb 2013 Casino cash: $2000359	Another approach to take regarding the merits of signing Berry, Poe, etc to large contracts is to first decide who, on our current defensive roster, are the "building blocks" of the future and ensuring that we have the cap room available to keep these players. Who are the disrupters? Who do offensive coordinators have to scheme around? Who are the impact players? I'd offer that these include: Houston Jones Peters Berry I just don't see Poe as a key piece. He's a nice player, but certainly doesn't stand out as a disruptor of all things offensive. Whereas the four guys noted above certainly appear to make a difference when they're on the field. With that, I'd lean towards signing Berry and letting Poe walk.....of course, you can't go "blank check" on any of these guys. That said, these are the key guys I'd make every effort to lock up contractwise.
Posts: 3,128

02-03-2017, 05:34 PM	#127
kccrow MVP Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Michigan Casino cash: $-1250000	If you could do this instead of signing Berry and Poe, would you be on board? Zach Brown - ILB - 4 years, 28 million, 15 million guaranteed (in line with Danny Trevathan/Brandon Marshall contracts last season). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 6 million. Barry Church - SS - 3 years, 16 million, 6 million guaranteed (in line with Kurt Coleman contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 3.7 million. Abry Jones - DT - 3 years, 10 million, 4 million guaranteed (Al Woods/Steve McClendon type contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 2.5 million. Kevin Zeitler - RG - 5 years, 42 million, 18 million guaranteed (Brandon Brooks type contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 6 million. Total estimated year 1 cap hit of 18.2 million. What you get: Brown is a physical presence in the box that sets the tone defensively and is rangy enough to stick with TEs and RBs in space. Church is a physical, downhill box type safety which was Berry's primary role up until this season. Jones is a tough run defender and clogs gaps, young and is coming into his own. Reminds me of Jaye Howard. Zeitler is one of the best guards in the NFL. You've effectively freed up your draft resources to do whatever the hell you desire. Draft BPA. Obviously would have to get a safety to take over for Church sooner than later, but you're looking at a guy the same age as Berry anyhow. Just contemplating that letting both walk could be just as good of a call as keeping them.
Posts: 14,114