Al Saunders for HC

07-06-2001, 09:04 AM

Let me pose a question.
In retrospect, why didnt King Carl just hire Al Saunders as Head Coach instead of DV? that way you get the guy truly reponsible for St Loo's offensive success, a guy with KC roots without losing a 2nd round pick. And St Louis wouldnt be negotiating for green with nearly as big of a chip on their shoulder. How long is DV going to coach anyway? And when he does step down, wont Saunders step up? Why not skip the middle step and go straight to the heir apparent?
Did Carl let his personal relationship get in the way of what was best for the Chiefs?

HC_Chief · 07-06-2001, 09:08 AM

Saunders is a lock for our next HC. DV and Peterson go WAAAAAYYY back. Vermeil wasn't ready to call it quits and Peterson always wanted him in KC (DV was his frist choice - Marty was his second).

Dick will coach for three years tops (at least, that's the over...)

philfree · 07-06-2001, 09:11 AM

I think it's pretty simple. DV has caoched two teams to the Superbowl. Al Saunders has not. The Rams even with their mighty offense lost in the 1st round of the playoffs when DV was retired. DVs the glues that holds it all together. His coaching philosophy's are the difference. See! Simple.

PhilFree :cool:
Not to mention that Carl really does think DV is the best coach in the NFL at this time. I think he really believes this.

Gaz · 07-06-2001, 09:27 AM

I agree with #7.

I wanted Saunders for our HC. I hate that we gave up our 2nd Round pick for Vermeil [Tagliabue sucks] knowing full well that he will leave in a few years.

But I can see why Carl did it. We had just endured two years of total embarrassment at the hands of Gunther and his Stooges. Carl needed Vermeil's Super Bowl champion cachet to rinse the Stooge stench out of the air, attract quality Coordinators to KC and pump up the fans.

And it worked. The R&G fan base is invigorated again.

I disagree with the decision. I think Vermeil cost way too much. But I cannot fault the result.

xoxo~
Gaz
Gonna miss those draft picks.

DaWolf · 07-06-2001, 10:10 AM

The reason we hired Vermiel is simple: He brings instant credibility with his program, and he is able to lay a foundation for the future success of the organization. The on field stuff is probably less of a factor than the overall organizational stuff that Vermiel brings in regards to why hire him over someone else. As far as Saunders, he isn't a lock as next head coach. He may suck as an OC, and prove to be nothing more than a very good WR coach. We will find out over the next two seasons. Carl did not want to make another Gunther hire, even though Al has a few years under his belt as San Diego's HC. He needs to prove himself all over again...

07-06-2001, 10:29 AM

All the instant credibility aside, I think DV is obviously a short term (2-3 year) hire. Bringing in Saunders instead would offer some stability to a team that's been sorely lacking it for the last 4-5 years. When DV steps down, whoever replaces them will put in their people and their system, however similar it is to DV's. I just think the situation called for someone who could add a long term vision to the equation. And will Carl and Lamar be patient enough to sit through back-to-back 5-11 seasons in order to rebuild the team like Georgia Frontiere did if necessary? Will the fans be patient enough?

CanadaKC · 07-06-2001, 12:33 PM

As I mentioned on the other BB some time ago...perception plays as much a part in today's NFL as does actual coaching ability,
and Vermeil brings both. Vermeil's hiring was an important PR move to the future credibility of this franchise in the eyes of the media (always looking for a new bandwagon to jump on) and to the players, present and future. Future big name free agents and hot-shot rookies alike, will now take a hard look at the Chiefs, whereas before they might not have. I like the Vermeil/Saunders tandem, because it solidifies the foundation of this team for years to come. Don't be suprised if in the next couple of years, there's a sudden influx of interest to play in KC,
and we'll all be the benefactors of that talent pool heading here. IMO, it's about time this organization once again stepped up to the NFL elite, and was noticed for it.

DaWolf · 07-06-2001, 12:40 PM

In Carl's mind, I don't think he feels that this team is too far away, thus the Vermiel thing. He's not among the top 3 highest paid coaches in the league or something like that to go 5-11...

CanadaKC · 07-06-2001, 12:44 PM

You're right Wolf. Once Carl gets his books in order (signing a punter for a mill-per doesn't cut it, however), and the system and coaches are sync...the Chiefs will thrive.

07-06-2001, 01:20 PM

The problem with Carl is that he's never thought his team is too far away.
And I disagree about drawing free agents to KC. Almost all of the talent in St Louis was either homegrown (Bruce) or acquired via trade (Faulk). Although he has changed since, Vermeil was infamous for his back-breaking practices which nearly caused a player revolt his second year. And even if his personality/credibility was a draw for free agents, who is going to sign on to the program knowing its going to last 3 years max? With Saunders as the head man, at least you could draw top-shelf offensive players who thought they could inflate their stats in his offense, however flawed that logic might be. And FA's would know that as long as the team was successful, Saunders would be The Man.
In order for the Chiefs to contend in the next 2 years, they will have to upgrade considerably just to keep up with the changes being made in Seattle and Denver and they simply dont have the cap room to do it. At least if they would have had a #1 (by taking Dilfer/Flutie/Gus/Kitna/Beurlein instead of Green) and #2 pick this year, they could have built a foundation for the future. There is no way that Priest Holmes is the long term answer at running back. Shields and Tate cant block everyone by themselves. Last years draft will help but that needed to be built upon.

**Rausch** · 07-06-2001, 01:32 PM

Not the immediate future, but the future does look bright.

Holmgren will be working his magic against the Lambs and the Cardinals next year, not in the AFC....

Oakland/LA/Wherever they are this week Raiders are old, very old. 2 years tops before they slide back down the ladder...

Denver is probably the most often banged up group of talent I've ever seen. Depending on the health of Griese/TD/Gary/offensive line they could go 12-4 or 4-12....Remember the Broncos/Jets of two years ago?

The Chargers will be good. They will. Big hurdle.

That's it....Raiders are old, Denver could dominate either the playoffs or the ER, and the Chargers still have the stink of failure on them. Anyone could take the division this year...All it will take is one team getting some early breaks, some confidence, and good luck with injuries!

:D

**Skip Towne** · 07-06-2001, 02:01 PM

#7 - To answer your original question, DV & CP did not think we would owe any compensation to the Rams. I didn't either (thanks Tagliabue). Also, you are correct that Saunders did a fine job as OC for the Rams. But hhis record as a HC is still suspect. I think of the coaching hierarchy of a pro football team a s very much the same as upper managemenof corporation. The HC is the President and is responsible for the overall success of the company (team).The OC & DC are executive vice presidents in charge of the overall performance of their area of specialization. ( Offense or defense). The position coaches are the middle managers who work with an even more specialized group of people. The armed forces are structured in much the same way. A good pilot doesn't necessarily make a good General. A good OC doesn't necessarily make a good HC. The responsibilities are quite different. See "The Peter Principle". I think this will turn out to please most of us.

07-06-2001, 02:05 PM

You wouldnt waste a 2nd round draft pick on a player who you knew would only be with your team for 2 years, so why would you do the same thing with a coach?

hawaiianboy · 07-06-2001, 02:24 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BRAD_CAUDLE [/i]
[B]

Oakland/LA/Wherever they are this week Raiders are old, very old. 2 years tops before they slide back down the ladder...
:D [/B][/QUOTE]

See now BC, usually I let this sort of statement slide as I realize this is a Chief's board and you've all got those red and yellow colored scuba masks on real tight (to go along with the mullet doo =P)..
..

But this time I feel the need to don the Silver and Black bat and come correct...

Our old players:
[*] Gannon--- We drafted Tuiasosopo in anticipation of Gannon hanging them up in a couple....
[*] Wiszneiski--- we signed a 25 year old, 4 year vet starter from Tampa (Frank Middleton) to succeed him.... Our next oldest starter on the O-Line is 30.
[*] Brown/Rice--- Porter and Rambo waiting in the wings....
[*] Trace Armstrong--- One of the reasons we signed him was none of our main guys at D-line were over 26... plus we drafted DeLawrence Grant....
[*] Eric Allen--- Tory James is aready pushing him for the starting position....
[*] Useless Pope--- Drafted Gibson to take his spot (also watch for Ray Perryman, the guys gong to be a player, mark my words)
[*] Wheatley/Garner/Ritchie--- all under the age of 30...
[*] Willie Thomas--- Eric Barton lost his position to WT due to injury, he's ready to start.... I'll give you Biekart, we have no replacement in sight..

I think Grudens done a good job planning for the future.... Unless for some reason we're not allowed to participate in free agency... or we do something reeruned like give up our draft for a coach or bury ourselves with Cap mismanagement.... I see no reason why this team won't stay competitive for years to come.....

The "old" stuff doesn't fly IMO.... you guys should stick to the tried and true "Noodle arm got lucky last year".... one of these years you may actually be right
:D ......

**The Bad Guy** · 07-06-2001, 02:25 PM

The second rounder that you would pick isn't NFL tested, and you don't know how he would adapt to the pro game.

Vermeil has been to two Super Bowls, and has won one.

How many perspective second round picks can say that?

That is why you give up the second rounder for a coach like Vermeil.

We gave up a second round pick for a great head coach and a great football staff.

Their influence could be the difference in 3-4 wins during the season. No second round pick would have the same impact.

07-06-2001, 09:04 AM
mult Guest Casino cash: $	Al Saunders for HC Let me pose a question. In retrospect, why didnt King Carl just hire Al Saunders as Head Coach instead of DV? that way you get the guy truly reponsible for St Loo's offensive success, a guy with KC roots without losing a 2nd round pick. And St Louis wouldnt be negotiating for green with nearly as big of a chip on their shoulder. How long is DV going to coach anyway? And when he does step down, wont Saunders step up? Why not skip the middle step and go straight to the heir apparent? Did Carl let his personal relationship get in the way of what was best for the Chiefs?
Posts: n/a

07-06-2001, 09:08 AM	#2
HC_Chief That's just f***in' stupid Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: suburbia Casino cash: $3687107	Saunders is a lock for our next HC. DV and Peterson go WAAAAAYYY back. Vermeil wasn't ready to call it quits and Peterson always wanted him in KC (DV was his frist choice - Marty was his second). Dick will coach for three years tops (at least, that's the over...) __________________ "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
Posts: 12,355

07-06-2001, 09:11 AM	#3
philfree Indian Twitter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Free Agency Casino cash: $1636198	I think it's pretty simple. DV has caoched two teams to the Superbowl. Al Saunders has not. The Rams even with their mighty offense lost in the 1st round of the playoffs when DV was retired. DVs the glues that holds it all together. His coaching philosophy's are the difference. See! Simple. PhilFree :cool: Not to mention that Carl really does think DV is the best coach in the NFL at this time. I think he really believes this. __________________ [/SIGPIC]
Posts: 14,964

07-06-2001, 09:27 AM	#4
Gaz Defense Homer Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Rancho Gaz Casino cash: $10010793	We shoulda hired Saunders. I agree with #7. I wanted Saunders for our HC. I hate that we gave up our 2nd Round pick for Vermeil [Tagliabue sucks] knowing full well that he will leave in a few years. But I can see why Carl did it. We had just endured two years of total embarrassment at the hands of Gunther and his Stooges. Carl needed Vermeil's Super Bowl champion cachet to rinse the Stooge stench out of the air, attract quality Coordinators to KC and pump up the fans. And it worked. The R&G fan base is invigorated again. I disagree with the decision. I think Vermeil cost way too much. But I cannot fault the result. xoxo~ Gaz Gonna miss those draft picks.
Posts: 5,911

07-06-2001, 10:10 AM	#5
DaWolf Cry havoc... Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10007725	The reason we hired Vermiel is simple: He brings instant credibility with his program, and he is able to lay a foundation for the future success of the organization. The on field stuff is probably less of a factor than the overall organizational stuff that Vermiel brings in regards to why hire him over someone else. As far as Saunders, he isn't a lock as next head coach. He may suck as an OC, and prove to be nothing more than a very good WR coach. We will find out over the next two seasons. Carl did not want to make another Gunther hire, even though Al has a few years under his belt as San Diego's HC. He needs to prove himself all over again...
Posts: 6,798

07-06-2001, 10:29 AM	#6
mult Guest Casino cash: $	All the instant credibility aside, I think DV is obviously a short term (2-3 year) hire. Bringing in Saunders instead would offer some stability to a team that's been sorely lacking it for the last 4-5 years. When DV steps down, whoever replaces them will put in their people and their system, however similar it is to DV's. I just think the situation called for someone who could add a long term vision to the equation. And will Carl and Lamar be patient enough to sit through back-to-back 5-11 seasons in order to rebuild the team like Georgia Frontiere did if necessary? Will the fans be patient enough?
Posts: n/a

07-06-2001, 12:33 PM	#7
CanadaKC Lord of the SB Rings Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada Casino cash: $6598668	As I mentioned on the other BB some time ago...perception plays as much a part in today's NFL as does actual coaching ability, and Vermeil brings both. Vermeil's hiring was an important PR move to the future credibility of this franchise in the eyes of the media (always looking for a new bandwagon to jump on) and to the players, present and future. Future big name free agents and hot-shot rookies alike, will now take a hard look at the Chiefs, whereas before they might not have. I like the Vermeil/Saunders tandem, because it solidifies the foundation of this team for years to come. Don't be suprised if in the next couple of years, there's a sudden influx of interest to play in KC, and we'll all be the benefactors of that talent pool heading here. IMO, it's about time this organization once again stepped up to the NFL elite, and was noticed for it.
Posts: 1,503

07-06-2001, 12:40 PM	#8
DaWolf Cry havoc... Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10007725	In Carl's mind, I don't think he feels that this team is too far away, thus the Vermiel thing. He's not among the top 3 highest paid coaches in the league or something like that to go 5-11...
Posts: 6,798

07-06-2001, 12:44 PM	#9
CanadaKC Lord of the SB Rings Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada Casino cash: $6598668	You're right Wolf. Once Carl gets his books in order (signing a punter for a mill-per doesn't cut it, however), and the system and coaches are sync...the Chiefs will thrive.
Posts: 1,503

07-06-2001, 01:20 PM	#10
mult Guest Casino cash: $	The problem with Carl is that he's never thought his team is too far away. And I disagree about drawing free agents to KC. Almost all of the talent in St Louis was either homegrown (Bruce) or acquired via trade (Faulk). Although he has changed since, Vermeil was infamous for his back-breaking practices which nearly caused a player revolt his second year. And even if his personality/credibility was a draw for free agents, who is going to sign on to the program knowing its going to last 3 years max? With Saunders as the head man, at least you could draw top-shelf offensive players who thought they could inflate their stats in his offense, however flawed that logic might be. And FA's would know that as long as the team was successful, Saunders would be The Man. In order for the Chiefs to contend in the next 2 years, they will have to upgrade considerably just to keep up with the changes being made in Seattle and Denver and they simply dont have the cap room to do it. At least if they would have had a #1 (by taking Dilfer/Flutie/Gus/Kitna/Beurlein instead of Green) and #2 pick this year, they could have built a foundation for the future. There is no way that Priest Holmes is the long term answer at running back. Shields and Tate cant block everyone by themselves. Last years draft will help but that needed to be built upon.
Posts: n/a

07-06-2001, 02:01 PM	#12
Skip Towne Supporter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: T-Town Casino cash: $10004900	#7 - To answer your original question, DV & CP did not think we would owe any compensation to the Rams. I didn't either (thanks Tagliabue). Also, you are correct that Saunders did a fine job as OC for the Rams. But hhis record as a HC is still suspect. I think of the coaching hierarchy of a pro football team a s very much the same as upper managemenof corporation. The HC is the President and is responsible for the overall success of the company (team).The OC & DC are executive vice presidents in charge of the overall performance of their area of specialization. ( Offense or defense). The position coaches are the middle managers who work with an even more specialized group of people. The armed forces are structured in much the same way. A good pilot doesn't necessarily make a good General. A good OC doesn't necessarily make a good HC. The responsibilities are quite different. See "The Peter Principle". I think this will turn out to please most of us.
Posts: 69,689

07-06-2001, 02:05 PM	#13
mult Guest Casino cash: $	You wouldnt waste a 2nd round draft pick on a player who you knew would only be with your team for 2 years, so why would you do the same thing with a coach?
Posts: n/a

07-06-2001, 02:24 PM	#14
hawaiianboy *************** Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	Beeeeeee Ceeeeeeee [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BRAD_CAUDLE [/i] [B] Oakland/LA/Wherever they are this week Raiders are old, very old. 2 years tops before they slide back down the ladder... :D [/B][/QUOTE] See now BC, usually I let this sort of statement slide as I realize this is a Chief's board and you've all got those red and yellow colored scuba masks on real tight (to go along with the mullet doo =P).. .. But this time I feel the need to don the Silver and Black bat and come correct... Our old players: [] Gannon--- We drafted Tuiasosopo in anticipation of Gannon hanging them up in a couple.... [] Wiszneiski--- we signed a 25 year old, 4 year vet starter from Tampa (Frank Middleton) to succeed him.... Our next oldest starter on the O-Line is 30. [] Brown/Rice--- Porter and Rambo waiting in the wings.... [] Trace Armstrong--- One of the reasons we signed him was none of our main guys at D-line were over 26... plus we drafted DeLawrence Grant.... [] Eric Allen--- Tory James is aready pushing him for the starting position.... [] Useless Pope--- Drafted Gibson to take his spot (also watch for Ray Perryman, the guys gong to be a player, mark my words) [] Wheatley/Garner/Ritchie--- all under the age of 30... [] Willie Thomas--- Eric Barton lost his position to WT due to injury, he's ready to start.... I'll give you Biekart, we have no replacement in sight.. I think Grudens done a good job planning for the future.... Unless for some reason we're not allowed to participate in free agency... or we do something reeruned like give up our draft for a coach or bury ourselves with Cap mismanagement.... I see no reason why this team won't stay competitive for years to come..... The "old" stuff doesn't fly IMO.... you guys should stick to the tried and true "Noodle arm got lucky last year".... one of these years you may actually be right :D ...... Last edited by hawaiianboy; 07-06-2001 at 02:27 PM..
Posts: 745

07-06-2001, 02:25 PM	#15
The Bad Guy Scott Pioli Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: The Copacobana Casino cash: $9373645	The second rounder that you would pick isn't NFL tested, and you don't know how he would adapt to the pro game. Vermeil has been to two Super Bowls, and has won one. How many perspective second round picks can say that? That is why you give up the second rounder for a coach like Vermeil. We gave up a second round pick for a great head coach and a great football staff. Their influence could be the difference in 3-4 wins during the season. No second round pick would have the same impact. __________________
Posts: 23,212