Should Shoeless Joe Jackson be in the Hall of Fame?

[Jenson71]

Should Pete Rose?

There was no direct evidence I know of that showed Jackson threw the games or helped do so. At most damning, he only heard rumors, but rumors of throwing WS were always around.

Also, I'd like to recommend a book for history and baseball fans: The National Game by John P. Rossi. It's not huge on baseball details. It's an overview of baseball's history and how economic and social factors influenced baseball and how baseball played a role in America. It's nicely written and I would say a good start or refresher for the baseball fan looking for some history and cultural reading as well.

[DaneMcCloud]

Yes and Yes.

Baseball and its records are a ****ing farce.

[88TG88]

What were his numbers ?

[Frazod]

Yes to Jackson.

I used to say yes to Rose, but sadly he is such a complete unrepentant ****ing scumbag that it overrides his achievements on the field. Of course, he's no worse than Cobb. Basically, if he gets in, I won't mind, if he doesn't, he has no one but himself to blame. I guess that's a windy way of saying I don't give a shit.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Originally Posted by 88TG88

What were his numbers ?

the dude was a pimp

[ClevelandBronco]

Oh, hell yes to both.

[DeezNutz]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Yes and Yes.

Baseball and its records are a ****ing farce.

This, this, and this.

All sorts of efforts made to protect a loosely constructed facade and an imaginary hierarchy.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by frazod

Yes to Jackson.

I used to say yes to Rose, but sadly he is such a complete unrepentant ****ing scumbag that it overrides his achievements on the field. Of course, he's no worse than Cobb. Basically, if he gets in, I won't mind, if he doesn't, he has no one but himself to blame. I guess that's a windy way of saying I don't give a shit.

I think Pete Rose should be in because all of these other ****s are just as non-repentant.

I LOVE baseball but for ****ing Christ-sake, these guys are all drugged up.

And that's no joke. Bennie's, coke, 'roid's, HGH - you name it.

It is what is ****ing is.

And neither your or I could even SNIFF the majors, with or without those drugs.

That's the beauty of baseball.

[Frazod]

I think Rose would already be in if he'd just learn to SHUT THE **** UP.

[ClevelandBronco]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I think Pete Rose should be in because all of these other ****s are just as non-repentant.

I LOVE baseball but for ****ing Christ-sake, these guys are all drugged up.

And that's no joke. Bennie's, coke, 'roid's, HGH - you name it.

It is what is ****ing is.

And neither your or I could even SNIFF the majors, with or without those drugs.

That's the beauty of baseball.

Yep. This crap hasn't been a secret since years ago when Jim Bouton wrote "Ball Four." (Probably I'm missing something even before that.)

I wonder if you have the same problems with musicians who did/do drugs to get to a different level?

Painters? Actors?

This is NOTHING new.

[alnorth]

Definitely no for shoeless Joe, and not yet for Pete Rose. I know I'm in the minority here on Pete Rose, but I believe either throwing a game, or betting on your team as a manager are both unforgivable sins. (Why is it horrible for a manager to bet on their team to win? Simple: I'll do whatever I can to win today, even though it means blowing out my bullpen while losing instead of saving them tomorrow) I might be convinced to vote Pete Rose in after he dies, I dont feel all that strongly about him, but thats about it.

As for Shoeless Joe, he and his teammates didnt try to throw every game, they werent asked to do that. They were paid to throw 5 games, and they lost the games they were supposed to lose. The evidence that Shoeless Joe himself was guilty is also pretty compelling. He hit well for the series, but only in games he was supposed to win. He sucked in the games he was supposed to lose, until they were way behind.

He also made some good defensive plays, but only in games he was supposed to win. This part is probably the most damning: in games he was supposed to lose, he allowed a silly number of left field triples on balls hit his way (3), even though shoeless Joe was considered to be a good left fielder, and left field triples are very rare.

"Field of Dreams" is a silly pile of crap. Shoeless Joe was guilty as hell, admitted it under oath, and is rightfully banned.

[Jenson71]

Jackson's solid numbers are lower because he only played about 10 good seasons, compared to people like Cobb who played over 20

Jackson's numbers, compared to other leaders:

1772 Hits (middle of pack)
873 Runs (middle to lower of pack)
307 Doubles (low)
168 Triples (Pretty high)
785 RBIs (low)
54 HRs (extremely low - different era)
202 SBs (low to middle of pack)
.356 BA (extremely high)
.423 OBP (extremely high)
.517 SLG (middle of pack)

[ClevelandBronco]

Originally Posted by alnorth

"Field of Dreams" is a silly pile of crap.

Of course it was. So was this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Men_Out

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by alnorth

Shoeless Joe was guilty as hell, admitted it under oath, and is rightfully banned.

I didn't know that at all, or the throwing certain games, winning certain. Another words I'm confused huh? Well, I guess no longer.

[alnorth]

What we know on Shoeless Joe

Fact: he was promised $20,000 to throw 5 games, and received $5,000, which he accepted and spent. (He was apparently stiffed on the other 15 grand) If $5,000 doesnt sound like much today, it was almost equal to his salary.

Fact: Shoeless Joe confessed his guilt to a grand jury on September 28, 1920, signed a confession, and told many writers about his involvement.

(Testimony under oath)
Q: How much did [Chick Gandil] promise you?
A: Twenty thousand dollars if I would take part.
Q: And you said you would?
A: Yes sir.

Fact: Shoeless Joe hit .375 for the series, which a lot of people point to. However, he hit .545 in the 3 games he was supposed to win, and .250 with 0 RBI in the first 4 games he was supposed to lose. In the 5th game he was supposed to lose, he was hitless until they fell behind 5-0, after which he hit a solo homer. Later when they were down 10-1, he hit a double.

Fact: In the games they were supposed to lose, Shoeless Joe allowed 3 left field triples, which is a rediculously high number considering how rare an honest left field triple is, and considering that he was known as a good left fielder.