Gunther has been more of a liability than an asset to the organization - Page 2

shaneo69 · 11-17-2004, 02:36 PM

Like many of you, I was doing cartwheels last winter when Gunther was re-hired as DC. Now, I've come to the realization that, while not intentional, he has played a key role in the decline of the organization since 1998.

After Marty quit, CP had two key decisions to make. He had to hire a new head coach, and he had to decide who the Chiefs QB would be. He could've spent the big bucks and gone after a proven head coach like George Seifert. He could've spent more big bucks and re-signed Rich Gannon. But Peterson decided to hire a guy like Gunther, who wouldn't command a big salary, and who could be bullied into a) going with Grbac at QB since he was already signed to starter's money, and b) keeping the same stooges as assistant coaches, since they were still under contract. Gunther was just happy to be head coach and didn't care what kind of crappy conditions he was being subjected to, because he thought he was a good enough coach to overcome it. It turned out that he was not good enough to overcome Elvis' many weaknesses, the stooges' ineptness, and the death of Derrick Thomas.

Fast forward to 2004. Gunther loved KC, the Chiefs fans, and Carl and Lamar. He was so excited to be coming back as a hero that he agreed to DV's caveat that he wasn't going to be getting any help from free agency. We heard DV use the "cashed out" excuse, but my suspicions are that he a) didn't want to get rid of any of his beloved players, and b) he didn't want to give Gunther any more help than what GRob had to work with. And after thinking that his coaching ability could overcome any obstacles, Gunther has proven once again that he can't work miracles.

In both situations, Gunther should've stood up and made realistic demands, but I think he was too insecure to do so. Of course, had he done that, he probably wouldn't have gotten the Head Coaching job in '99 or the DC job in '04.

Hopefully, he will stand up this offseason and demand changes in defensive personnel, or we will be going through the same crap next year.

htismaqe · 11-17-2004, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaneo69

No, just ask KCJohnny. The decline of the defense started when DV was named Head Coach and the Ramzification began.

Exactly.

Seriously, the defensive decline of this team began the day they kept Derrick Thomas over Smith.

I'll probably get flamed to a crisp for saying this, but Thomas was a liability in stopping the run. We decided to keep him and focus our defense around him. We let guys like Smith, Saleamua, and Traylor go in favor of Dan Williams and later Chester McGlockton.

shaneo69 · 11-17-2004, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lzen

Nope, that was in 1998. DT played in 1999 and died in Feb(?) 2000. In reality, the defense in 1999 was pretty good. At least that's the way I remember it.

Yes, '99 was Derrick's last year. We gave up 20.1 points per game in '99. We had 25 INT's, 20 fumble recoveries (compared to 1 this year), and we had 39 sacks. Opponents averaged only 3.7 yards per rush against us that year.

shaneo69 · 11-17-2004, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Exactly.

Seriously, the defensive decline of this team began the day they kept Derrick Thomas over Smith.

I'll probably get flamed to a crisp for saying this, but Thomas was a liability in stopping the run. We decided to keep him and focus our defense around him. We let guys like Smith, Saleamua, and Traylor go in favor of Dan Williams and later Chester McGlockton.

I won't flame you for your opinion, but I can't agree with that. I'd take Derrick any day over Neil.

I thought our run defense went to hell as soon as we benched Tom Barndt and moved Dan Williams to DT late in '99. Then we let Barndt go as a free agent after that season.

htismaqe · 11-17-2004, 03:43 PM

I guess I have to chime in and say I was against hiring Gunther from the get-go.

I strongly felt like hiring Gunther would mean no free agents -- primarily because Gunther's "I" attitude would likely mean he told Vermeil and Peterson that we didn't need any free agents with him on the job.

htismaqe · 11-17-2004, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaneo69

I won't flame you for your opinion, but I can't agree with that. I'd take Derrick any day over Neil.

I thought our run defense went to hell as soon as we benched Tom Barndt and moved Dan Williams to DT late in '99. Then we let Barndt go as a free agent after that season.

I didn't articulate that well. The Thomas-over-Smith deal, to me, was the beginning of Marty going for "style" over "substance". Every person we signed from then on was either a cancer, malcontent, or criminal.

Hammock Parties · 11-17-2004, 03:46 PM

I think you are missing the point. The true scapegoats are Vermeil and Peterson. Gunther is just their whipping boy.

Vermeil should have given Gunther total control of the defense - personnel, coaches, etc.

I'm pretty much done with Dick 4 Meal. He can stick his profile up his ass.

Radar Chief · 11-17-2004, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Exactly.

Seriously, the defensive decline of this team began the day they kept Derrick Thomas over Smith.

I'll probably get flamed to a crisp for saying this, but Thomas was a liability in stopping the run. We decided to keep him and focus our defense around him. We let guys like Smith, Saleamua, and Traylor go in favor of Dan Williams and later Chester McGlockton.

Personally I was a lot more pissed about letting Trayler go than either Smith or Saleamua.

**BigRedChief** · 11-17-2004, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coogs

Wasn't DT on the field during the "Monday Night Meltdown" game?

He was the main reason for the MNF meltdown. Having sharpe talk smack to him all night finally got to him and he grabbed the face mask and I'mgoing WTF are you doing! get some frigging control back Marty.

Coach · 11-17-2004, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

He was the main reason for the MNF meltdown. Having sharpe talk smack to him all night finally got to him and he grabbed the face mask and I'mgoing WTF are you doing! get some frigging control back Marty.

I remember that incident as well, and wasn't that the time where Marty was trying to get the team under control, but failed to do so after talking to DT, but DT said something along with the lines of "shut up!"?

Chief Faithful · 11-17-2004, 03:54 PM

Bottomline is I still like this years defense significantly more than last years defense. Don't forget the Chiefs are playing much better teams this year, the defensive scheme is new, and still the defense is performing better. Gun is not the Chiefs problem.

Even with the disappointments this year I am very happy with the current coaching staff.

htismaqe · 11-17-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UserName

I think you are missing the point. The true scapegoats are Vermeil and Peterson. Gunther is just their whipping boy.

Vermeil should have given Gunther total control of the defense - personnel, coaches, etc.

I'm pretty much done with Dick 4 Meal. He can stick his profile up his ass.

I call bullshit.

You have no way of knowing the Vermeil DID NOT give Gunther total control.

In fact, I'm 100% convinced that he DID. He told Gunther "The defense is yours, what do you want to do."

And Gunther said "I can fix this. I don't need new players. I don't need new coaches. I can fix this."

Remember, Fred Pagac was brought in because the previous LB coach QUIT because he said he couldn't work for Gunther...

Wile_E_Coyote · 11-17-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UserName

I think you are missing the point. The true scapegoats are Vermeil and Peterson. Gunther is just their whipping boy.

Vermeil should have given Gunther total control of the defense - personnel, coaches, etc.

I'm pretty much done with Dick 4 Meal. He can stick his profile up his ass.

DV got Chief fans a couple of things they craved for years. 1) a feature back & may have actually developed one as well. 2) a good consistant QB. The playoff win is still out there

Hammock Parties · 11-17-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Exactly.

Seriously, the defensive decline of this team began the day they kept Derrick Thomas over Smith.

I'll probably get flamed to a crisp for saying this, but Thomas was a liability in stopping the run. We decided to keep him and focus our defense around him. We let guys like Smith, Saleamua, and Traylor go in favor of Dan Williams and later Chester McGlockton.

Of course the problem here was there was no way in HELL the Chiefs were going to let Derrick Thomas go. He was arguable the best Chiefs player in how many years?

They should have found a way to keep Derrick AND Neil.

Of course a couple years later Hicks came along and got 14 sacks.

Hammock Parties · 11-17-2004, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

I call bullshit.

You have no way of knowing the Vermeil DID NOT give Gunther total control.

In fact, I'm 100% convinced that he DID. He told Gunther "The defense is yours, what do you want to do."

And Gunther said "I can fix this. I don't need new players. I don't need new coaches. I can fix this."

Remember, Fred Pagac was brought in because the previous LB coach QUIT because he said he couldn't work for Gunther...

How many of the previous defensive position coaches were retained after Gunther was brought in? I think Gunther would have brought in his own coaches, at least. I still think Guinta is a horrible coach.

Of course the fact that Vermeil let Gunther bench his precious McCleon is a pretty good sign that Gunther has total control. Who knows.

Hammock Parties · 11-17-2004, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wile_E_Coyote

DV got Chief fans a couple of things they craved for years. 1) a feature back & may have actually developed one as well. 2) a good consistant QB. The playoff win is still out there

Vermeil for OC. And you know he'd run the ball more than Saunders.

11-17-2004, 02:36 PM
shaneo69 Smug Weasel Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Bleachers at Busch Casino cash: $10004900	Gunther has been more of a liability than an asset to the organization Like many of you, I was doing cartwheels last winter when Gunther was re-hired as DC. Now, I've come to the realization that, while not intentional, he has played a key role in the decline of the organization since 1998. After Marty quit, CP had two key decisions to make. He had to hire a new head coach, and he had to decide who the Chiefs QB would be. He could've spent the big bucks and gone after a proven head coach like George Seifert. He could've spent more big bucks and re-signed Rich Gannon. But Peterson decided to hire a guy like Gunther, who wouldn't command a big salary, and who could be bullied into a) going with Grbac at QB since he was already signed to starter's money, and b) keeping the same stooges as assistant coaches, since they were still under contract. Gunther was just happy to be head coach and didn't care what kind of crappy conditions he was being subjected to, because he thought he was a good enough coach to overcome it. It turned out that he was not good enough to overcome Elvis' many weaknesses, the stooges' ineptness, and the death of Derrick Thomas. Fast forward to 2004. Gunther loved KC, the Chiefs fans, and Carl and Lamar. He was so excited to be coming back as a hero that he agreed to DV's caveat that he wasn't going to be getting any help from free agency. We heard DV use the "cashed out" excuse, but my suspicions are that he a) didn't want to get rid of any of his beloved players, and b) he didn't want to give Gunther any more help than what GRob had to work with. And after thinking that his coaching ability could overcome any obstacles, Gunther has proven once again that he can't work miracles. In both situations, Gunther should've stood up and made realistic demands, but I think he was too insecure to do so. Of course, had he done that, he probably wouldn't have gotten the Head Coaching job in '99 or the DC job in '04. Hopefully, he will stand up this offseason and demand changes in defensive personnel, or we will be going through the same crap next year.
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11-17-2004, 03:43 PM	#19
htismaqe 'Tis my eye! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Chiefsplanet Casino cash: $10269900	I guess I have to chime in and say I was against hiring Gunther from the get-go. I strongly felt like hiring Gunther would mean no free agents -- primarily because Gunther's "I" attitude would likely mean he told Vermeil and Peterson that we didn't need any free agents with him on the job.
Posts: 100,022

11-17-2004, 03:46 PM	#21
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $4160478	I think you are missing the point. The true scapegoats are Vermeil and Peterson. Gunther is just their whipping boy. Vermeil should have given Gunther total control of the defense - personnel, coaches, etc. I'm pretty much done with Dick 4 Meal. He can stick his profile up his ass. __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 279,743

11-17-2004, 03:54 PM	#25
Chief Faithful Predicting Chiefs Victory Join Date: Sep 2001 Casino cash: $9966500	Bottomline is I still like this years defense significantly more than last years defense. Don't forget the Chiefs are playing much better teams this year, the defensive scheme is new, and still the defense is performing better. Gun is not the Chiefs problem. Even with the disappointments this year I am very happy with the current coaching staff.
Posts: 4,315