If fully healthy, this could be the greatest offense we've ever watched

[dlphg9]

This is going to be exciting as **** if Hardman can play at full strength. The possibility of having Kelce, JJSS, McKinnon, Toney, and Hardman all on the field together and healthy for the 1st time is amazing. Add in a damn good RB in Pacheco and this could literally be the best offense that we've ever seen.

Imagine the shit Andy can come up with like Hardman and Toney in the backfield at the same time or McKinnon and Toney/Hardman in the backfield with Toney/Hardman potentially coming around for a jet sweep. Having JJSS as a more than competent receiving option this year and Hardman and Toney's speed is literally going to be an absolute nightmare for opposing teams.

I'm really excited for these playoff games, just gotta hope that everyone gets healed up over the next 2 weeks. HFA is huge.

So excited.

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He's bigger and stronger than probably 80% of the DBs who are contesting those balls. His size isn't what's preventing those catches.

Because it isn't about size. It's about body control.

He also has weird quirks...check this out...if he goes right in the route he'll almost always catch the ball if he goes left he almost never catches the ball, it's weird as hell.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

It's the same argument people make about basketball players at the NBA level needing to be "stronger" around the basket.

Well, when they guy bumping you is 6"8 and also a freak athlete, yeah, it's hard to do. There's a reason Lebron or MJ or whoever is such a great finisher around the rim. Not everyone can do it.

MJ is a fascinating example. Guys could run faster and jump higher than him. But man, the stuff he could do in the air was just absurd. And it wasn't because he was bigger than those defenders - he could just contort in ways that even elite athletes can't.

Those times he 'hung' in the air - shit man, he didn't defy gravity; physics still applied to him. But he could adjust his body so seamlessly that it looked like he was up there longer than anyone else.

That's what the truly great contested catch receivers (at least the downfield versions) could do.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by Hammock Parties

pretty sure toney is better at it than anyone else on the roster right now

he's gotten two of those kinds of balls from mahomes in very limited reps

Ben Skowronek for the Rams. He was able to go up and get balls for Baker. But maybe that's because he's not that fast. Plus, he's just a WR5.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He's bigger and stronger than probably 80% of the DBs who are contesting those balls.

Ehhhh idk about that one, man. Taller, sure. Faster in a straight line, sure.

"Skinniest ankles i've ever seen" -Andy Reid.

Dude is kind of a rail and while i agree about body control, playing through contact is a trait too, one he nor Hardman feature.

On that DPI-non call from Saturday, it's a great example of what i mean.

[O.city]

Julio was 6'4 and had the hip flexibility of a 5'10 guy. Plus the athleticism of an all time player.

People want these big strong dudes that can run great routes too. Take DK for example. He isn't gonna be a great route runner. Physics won't allow it. He can't break in and out of cuts like Tyreek or like AB in his prime.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Ben Skowronek for the Rams. He was able to go up and get balls for Baker. But maybe that's because he's not that fast.

44% success rate on downfield passes. Worse than MVS.

Average depth of target - 8.0 yards; a full 7 yards per target shorter than MVS.

Guys, you're asking unreasonable things here and providing non-applicable examples. Yes, there are times a WR can jump up and catch a pass. But what you're talking about is a downfield receiver in full gallop stopping his momentum, going straight up, turning his body and bringing the ball in.

It doesn't happen NEARLY as frequently as y'all seem to think it does. And it certainly isn't guys running routes way downfield that tend to do it.

[ToxSocks]

If you go team by team you'll find a large number of guys who are better at what we're describing than MVS and Hardman. It's really not THAT rare.

Me, personally, don't give a damn about "great routes".

Give me elite body control, speed and size. Coaches will figure out how to make him turn left.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Ehhhh idk about that one, man. Taller, sure. Faster in a straight line, sure.

"Skinniest ankles i've ever seen" -Andy Reid.

Dude is kind of a rail and while i agree about body control, playing through contact is a trait too, one he nor Hardman feature.

On that DPI-non call from Saturday, it's a great example of what i mean.

Yeah - I didn't see it (or don't recall it). I'd have to hunt it up.

Remember when we were talking about WRs and I said I like Austin because if you give me two fast guys, I'll take the guy with the shorter stride length because of how often those guys have feet on the ground and thus how hard they are to knock off their route?

You take a guy who's relatively skinny AND has a long stride length, how much contact do you really think he's going to be able to battle through?

This isn't the question of 'want to' that so many people want to make it. It's physics.

[493rd]

Yeah the offense will be great…just as long as our 2 wonder boy tackles are adequately blocking. Mahomes is best at improv, but we don’t need him running for his life the entire game.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

Didn't we score 35 a game for a good stretch once with Reek, Hunt, and a healthy Sammy?

The first half of 2018 was obviously the greatest offense in KC history.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

44% success rate on downfield passes. Worse than MVS.

Average depth of target - 8.0 yards; a full 7 yards per target shorter than MVS.

Guys, you're asking unreasonable things here and providing non-applicable examples. Yes, there are times a WR can jump up and catch a pass. But what you're talking about is a downfield receiver in full gallop stopping his momentum, going straight up, turning his body and bringing the ball in.

It doesn't happen NEARLY as frequently as y'all seem to think it does. And it certainly isn't guys running routes way downfield that tend to do it.

The point I've been making, is that Stone Hands at least tried. And came down with some balls in the process. I don't care about his completion rate in this argument, because he's a WR5. He's not supposed to come down with more balls than MVS, so who cares what his actual completion rate is? Plus, he's had four different QBs throwing to him this year, so who knows if he'd have caught more balls with just some continuity.

But MVS has had the same guy throwing balls to him, so he doesn't get that excuse.

And while we're at it, you know who came down with a lot of those type passes for Mahomes in the past? D. Robinson. Did he have a great catch rate on deep balls? i don't know, and I really don't care what the actual percentage was. What matters in this discussion, is that D.Rob made an effort to go get passes in the vertical, and came down with some of them.

No one is asking MVS to be DHop/Diggs/J. Jefferson, etc. We all know he ain't that dude.

But he's 6'3" or whatever. and he's technically KC's WR2, so he's supposed to basically be the Chiefs equivalent of Mike Williams for LAC. Mike goes up in the air for footballs.

Just use your height/length when able, man, that's all. If not, then what makes him any different from Hardman at 5'11" or whatever? Not much, as far as I can tell.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I reiterate, you beat the cover 2 with speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed.

Y'all can have your 'physical' WRs and 'zone beaters' who don't actually have any stand out skills to speak of.

I want jackrabbits. You give me Toney, Hardman and MVS out on that field with Kelce and this offense will hum like we haven't ever seen.

You can only cover so much grass, fellas. The limiting factor that has historically existed on this approach was the QB, but our QB can challenge every square inch of turf.

So give him targets that can get to them.

The 49ers game was a good case study on this and I’d argue that it was our best offensive game of the season.

The pure speed of Hardman and MVS opened everything up. But with cover 2 you already have 2 guys taking the reigns off the deep ball. Then 2 more usually on Kelce.

Andy schemed Juju open several times that game and the speed/Kelce matchup’s clearly had Juju 1v1 and he won. A lot.

Andy even got him matched up on a LB multiple times due to this and it killed SF’s defense. We also did this with Sammy Watkins with great success.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

The point I've been making, is that Stone Hands at least tried. And came down with some balls in the process. I don't care about his completion rate in this argument, because he's a WR5. He's not supposed to come down with more balls than MVS, so who cares what his actual completion rate is? Plus, he's had four different QBs throwing to him this year, so who knows if he'd have caught more balls with just some continuity.

But MVS has had the same guy throwing balls to him, so he doesn't get that excuse.

And while we're at it, you know who came down with a lot of those type passes for Mahomes in the past? D. Robinson. Did he have a great catch rate on deep balls? i don't know, and I really don't care what the actual percentage was. What matters in this discussion, is that D.Rob made an effort to go get passes in the vertical, and came down with some of them.

No one is asking MVS to be DHop/Diggs/J. Jefferson, etc. We all know he ain't that dude.

But he's 6'3" or whatever. and he's technically KC's WR2, so he's supposed to basically be the Chiefs equivalent of Mike Williams for LAC. Mike goes up in the air for footballs.

Just use your height/length when able, man, that's all. If not, then what makes him any different from Hardman at 5'11" or whatever? Not much, as far as I can tell.

"I don't care what the data supports - I know what I know and MVS is jaking passes out there..."

Um...okay.

Guess there ain't much to talk about when you've made your decision, data be damned.

What you 'know' is that MVS is supposed to be our Mike Williams. So what you know is really remarkably wrong-headed. But you know it, so I guess you've got that going for you.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

44% success rate on downfield passes. Worse than MVS.

Average depth of target - 8.0 yards; a full 7 yards per target shorter than MVS.

Guys, you're asking unreasonable things here and providing non-applicable examples. Yes, there are times a WR can jump up and catch a pass. But what you're talking about is a downfield receiver in full gallop stopping his momentum, going straight up, turning his body and bringing the ball in.

It doesn't happen NEARLY as frequently as y'all seem to think it does. And it certainly isn't guys running routes way downfield that tend to do it.

We have 3 WR's in our division that can do it. 4 if you count Sutton, which imo, qualifies as well. We don't have to look far.

[Chiefnj2]

MVS is not aggressive in going to the ball. It always seems like he's waiting for it to come into his chest. He's way too passive.

I think the top 5 players (if healthy) from 2018 edge out the top 5 from this year (if healthy)

TE: Kelce - push - Kelce
WR1: Hill > JuJu
WR2: Watkins > MVS
RB: Hunt > Pacheco
WR3: Conley < Hardman