If fully healthy, this could be the greatest offense we've ever watched

[BWillie]

Patrick's biggest weakness is on deep goes or fade routes. Sometimes he just doesn't have the touch. Deep crossing routes where he can put some zip on it and throw it low...hes the best to ever do it.

Contrary to popular belief you don't need to have an exceptional arm to throw the deep go or fade route. Your primarily just throwing it up high and accuracy and touch are more important. See Burrow, Brady and Seahawk Russell Wilson.

So in a sense not having Tyreek is sometimes a blessing. But Tyreek ran all sorts of routes too.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BWillie

Patrick's biggest weakness is on deep goes or fade routes. Sometimes he just doesn't have the touch. Deep crossing routes where he can put some zip on it and throw it low...hes the best to ever do it.

Contrary to popular belief you don't need to have an exceptional arm to throw the deep go or fade route. Your primarily just throwing it up and high and accuracy and touch are more important. See Burrow, Brady and Seahawk Russell Wilson.

So in a sense not having Tyreek is sometimes a blessing. But Tyreek ran all sorts of routes too.

Where I think he really struggles is double-moves.

Because those routes need a lot of touch and the WR has to be able to locate and adjust to the ball coming out of his route.

Mahomes throws such a flat deep shot that the timing has to be absolutely perfect and that's just damn tough to do on a double move where there a half-dozen different things that can get that WRs route changed.

I honestly think that's why we don't use them much. Folks typically blame the OL but I think it's the lack of air Mahomes puts under his deep ball.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Where I think he really struggles is double-moves.

Because those routes need a lot of touch and the WR has to be able to locate and adjust to the ball coming out of his route.

Mahomes throws such a flat deep shot that the timing has to be absolutely perfect and that's just damn tough to do on a double move where there a half-dozen different things that can get that WRs route changed.

I honestly think that's why we don't use them much. Folks typically blame the OL but I think it's the lack of air Mahomes puts under his deep ball.

He's also throwing to a new crew, sans Hardman.

[O.city]

He just doesn't throw it high and lead guys as well as he should. I can't figure it out.

A couple times this year, he's had Watson on a post and he just doesn't throw it out in front of him.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

He just doesn't throw it high and lead guys as well as he should. I can't figure it out.

A couple times this year, he's had Watson on a post and he just doesn't throw it out in front of him.

He's overcorrected, IMO.

You just can't overthrow a guy with a full stride and give them no chance, so he started underthrowing them a bit.

Then you have folks (it's a hobby on CP) blaming the pass catcher for not "Going up and getting the ball!"

Fellas, there have been a half-dozen guys in NFL history that can do that. Hill could. But there's a reason 'Mossed' became a verb. That shit is RARE. You're asking a guy who's running on a dead sprint with his momentum taking him downfield to simply go straight up, turn his body and secure a catch with a guy coming downhill into his lap.

The simple act of stopping and going straight up is essentially impossible for all but the absolute elite of the elite. The rest need to decelerate, gather and then explode. MVS can't do that because he's not Tyreek Hill. If you underthrow him, he's not going to catch it. And it's not something that he 'needs to do!' - it's something that he physically CANNOT do because he's not a goddamn freak of nature.

There was a perfect example against the Raiders and of course the usual suspects "Why doesn't MVS just go up and get that!" - because he's running a goddamn windsprint down the field and had to jump, turn and catch a ball all in one motion. Mere mortals don't do that - HoF players do. Quit asking MVS to make that catch because if/when he does, it's really just dumb luck. Really good players don't make that catch, let along slightly above average ones. You've gotta make a better throw.

What I'd like to see Patrick do a little more of is throw to an open area and let his WR adjust laterally. That's a lot more doable. The throw doesn't have to be as precise because the WR can adjust his angle to it without trying to fully put the brakes on his momentum. So throw to the inside/outside of someone like that and let them try to change their angle.

But those throws directly over the top? Shit man, they're just REALLY hard throws to make and if they aren't really good throws, they're damn near impossible catches to bring in.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He's overcorrected, IMO.

You just can't overthrow a guy with a full stride and give them no chance, so he started underthrowing them a bit.

Then you have folks (it's a hobby on CP) blaming the pass catcher for not "Going up and getting the ball!"

Fellas, there have been a half-dozen guys in NFL history that can do that. Hill could. But there's a reason 'Mossed' became a verb. That shit is RARE. You're asking a guy who's running on a dead sprint with his momentum taking him downfield to simply go straight up, turn his body and secure a catch with a guy coming downhill into his lap.

The simple act of stopping and going straight up is essentially impossible for all but the absolute elite of the elite. The rest need to decelerate, gather and then explode. MVS can't do that because he's not Tyreek Hill. If you underthrow him, he's not going to catch it. And it's not something that he 'needs to do!' - it's something that he physically CANNOT do because he's not a goddamn freak of nature.

What I'd like to see Patrick do a little more of is throw to an open area and let his WR adjust laterally. That's a lot more doable. The throw doesn't have to be as precise because the WR can adjust his angle to it without trying to fully put the brakes on his momentum. So throw to the inside/outside of someone like that and let them try to change their angle.

But those throws directly over the top? Shit man, they're just REALLY hard throws to make and if they aren't really good throws, they're damn near impossible catches to bring in.

"Do what Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss did and "come back to it"."

Well, yeah, I mean, do what the freaks of all freaks could do. Sure, yeah, right.

I think he banks on the potential for the catch/flag too much with the underthrows. YOu won't get as many walk in TD's, which we've missed a few of.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

"Do what Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss did and "come back to it"."

Well, yeah, I mean, do what the freaks of all freaks could do. Sure, yeah, right.

Lynn Swann has been on highlight reels for 50 years because he did it once. That single catch probably put him in the Hall.

"Man, I wish we had guys who could go up and catch those balls...."

{sigh}

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He's overcorrected, IMO.

You just can't overthrow a guy with a full stride and give them no chance, so he started underthrowing them a bit.

Then you have folks (it's a hobby on CP) blaming the pass catcher for not "Going up and getting the ball!"

Fellas, there have been a half-dozen guys in NFL history that can do that. Hill could. But there's a reason 'Mossed' became a verb. That shit is RARE. You're asking a guy who's running on a dead sprint with his momentum taking him downfield to simply go straight up, turn his body and secure a catch with a guy coming downhill into his lap.

The simple act of stopping and going straight up is essentially impossible for all but the absolute elite of the elite. The rest need to decelerate, gather and then explode. MVS can't do that because he's not Tyreek Hill. If you underthrow him, he's not going to catch it. And it's not something that he 'needs to do!' - it's something that he physically CANNOT do because he's not a goddamn freak of nature.

Ok, and then there's plays like the non-call DPI from Saturday, in which MVS wilted like a delicate flower with relatively minor contact.

Our WR's can def be stronger at the point of attack. That's not a part of MVS or Hardman's game.

So yes, we CAN ask our pass catchers to do more to help Mahomes out. Because yeah, Mahomes isn't always the most accurate down the field.

It's the entire reason why i argue against these small catch radius WR's.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Ok, and then there's plays like the non-call DPI from Saturday, in which MVS wilted like a delicate flower with relatively minor contact.

Our WR's can def be stronger at the point of attack. That's not a part of MVS or Hardman's game.

So yes, we CAN ask our pass catchers to do more to help Mahomes out. Because yeah, Mahomes isn't always the most accurate down the field.

It's the entire reason why i argue against these small catch radius WR's.

MVS doesn't have a small catch radius. He runs downfield routes that require full speed movement and exceptionally high levels of momentum. That guy is long and fast with big arms and good leaping ability. He doesn't have a small catch radius - he simply has a low probability route tree.

He's not a low variance player. He's not a possession WR. If he were, with his frame and speed, he'd be Julio Jones.

He's not that guy because he doesn't have the freakish body control that Julio Jones had. So let's just stop acting like he should be.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

MVS doesn't have a small catch radius. He runs downfield routes that require full speed movement and exceptionally high levels of momentum. That guy is long and fast with big arms and good leaping ability. He doesn't have a small catch radius - he simply has a low probability route tree.

He's not a low variance player. He's not a possession WR. If he were, with his frame and speed, he'd be Julio Jones.

He's not that guy because he doesn't have the freakish body control that Julio Jones had. So let's just stop acting like he should be.

Im not acting like he should be Julio Jones, lol.

No, he's not a possession WR. Agreed.

I agree, he runs a low probability route tree.

I agree, he doesn't have freaky body control.

I'm not asking him to be anything more than what he is. Again, i like MVS. ****, i said, and still believe, he's a better talent than JuJu.

I want MVS on this roster moving forward. Hell, i wanna retain Hardman too.

I think they're fine in their respective roles.

What i'm asking for is someone with the physicality to win contested catches, while still having the speed to challenge vertically that can compliment those guys.

A JuJu that can run?

A Sammy Watkins that can stay healthy?

A George Pickens, even????

I'm not asking for the sun and the moon here.

MY position, is that we need to get more out of JuJu's position.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He's overcorrected, IMO.

You just can't overthrow a guy with a full stride and give them no chance, so he started underthrowing them a bit.

Then you have folks (it's a hobby on CP) blaming the pass catcher for not "Going up and getting the ball!"

Fellas, there have been a half-dozen guys in NFL history that can do that. Hill could. But there's a reason 'Mossed' became a verb. That shit is RARE.

pretty sure toney is better at it than anyone else on the roster right now

he's gotten two of those kinds of balls from mahomes in very limited reps

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by Hammock Parties

pretty sure toney is better at it than anyone else on the roster right now

Toney is good at it. We've seen it pay off twice now.

It's not nearly as rare a skill is DJ is making it out to be.

There's a whole lot of meat between MVS/Hardman's lack of physicality and a HOF WR. Plenty.

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Toney is good at it. We've seen it pay off twice now.

It's not nearly as rare a skill is DJ is making it out to be.

There's a whole lot of meat between MVS/Hardman's lack of physicality and a HOF WR. Plenty.

Hardman is just an athlete, he isn't really a WR. MVS is what he is, he's skinny as hell so he isn't gonna out muscle anyone.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Toney is good at it. We've seen it pay off twice now.

It's not nearly as rare a skill is DJ is making it out to be.

There's a whole lot of meat between MVS/Hardman's lack of physicality and a HOF WR. Plenty.

And Toney has truly rare physical skills.

That whip route he ran...sweet jesus, I pulled a hamstring watching it.

It's exactly what made Tyreek Hill as elite as he was. His ability to gather and explode at full speed is incredibly uncommon.

Body control ain't a given. Before Toney, we've had one guy in probably 25 years who demonstrated any proficiency with it (Hill).

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by Hammock Parties

pretty sure toney is better at it than anyone else on the roster right now

he's gotten two of those kinds of balls from mahomes in very limited reps

Ben Skowronek for the Rams. He was able to go up and get balls for Baker. But maybe that's because he's not that fast.