If fully healthy, this could be the greatest offense we've ever watched

[dlphg9]

This is going to be exciting as **** if Hardman can play at full strength. The possibility of having Kelce, JJSS, McKinnon, Toney, and Hardman all on the field together and healthy for the 1st time is amazing. Add in a damn good RB in Pacheco and this could literally be the best offense that we've ever seen.

Imagine the shit Andy can come up with like Hardman and Toney in the backfield at the same time or McKinnon and Toney/Hardman in the backfield with Toney/Hardman potentially coming around for a jet sweep. Having JJSS as a more than competent receiving option this year and Hardman and Toney's speed is literally going to be an absolute nightmare for opposing teams.

I'm really excited for these playoff games, just gotta hope that everyone gets healed up over the next 2 weeks. HFA is huge.

So excited.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BWillie

Patrick's biggest weakness is on deep goes or fade routes. Sometimes he just doesn't have the touch. Deep crossing routes where he can put some zip on it and throw it low...hes the best to ever do it.

Contrary to popular belief you don't need to have an exceptional arm to throw the deep go or fade route. Your primarily just throwing it up and high and accuracy and touch are more important. See Burrow, Brady and Seahawk Russell Wilson.

So in a sense not having Tyreek is sometimes a blessing. But Tyreek ran all sorts of routes too.

Where I think he really struggles is double-moves.

Because those routes need a lot of touch and the WR has to be able to locate and adjust to the ball coming out of his route.

Mahomes throws such a flat deep shot that the timing has to be absolutely perfect and that's just damn tough to do on a double move where there a half-dozen different things that can get that WRs route changed.

I honestly think that's why we don't use them much. Folks typically blame the OL but I think it's the lack of air Mahomes puts under his deep ball.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

He just doesn't throw it high and lead guys as well as he should. I can't figure it out.

A couple times this year, he's had Watson on a post and he just doesn't throw it out in front of him.

He's overcorrected, IMO.

You just can't overthrow a guy with a full stride and give them no chance, so he started underthrowing them a bit.

Then you have folks (it's a hobby on CP) blaming the pass catcher for not "Going up and getting the ball!"

Fellas, there have been a half-dozen guys in NFL history that can do that. Hill could. But there's a reason 'Mossed' became a verb. That shit is RARE. You're asking a guy who's running on a dead sprint with his momentum taking him downfield to simply go straight up, turn his body and secure a catch with a guy coming downhill into his lap.

The simple act of stopping and going straight up is essentially impossible for all but the absolute elite of the elite. The rest need to decelerate, gather and then explode. MVS can't do that because he's not Tyreek Hill. If you underthrow him, he's not going to catch it. And it's not something that he 'needs to do!' - it's something that he physically CANNOT do because he's not a goddamn freak of nature.

There was a perfect example against the Raiders and of course the usual suspects "Why doesn't MVS just go up and get that!" - because he's running a goddamn windsprint down the field and had to jump, turn and catch a ball all in one motion. Mere mortals don't do that - HoF players do. Quit asking MVS to make that catch because if/when he does, it's really just dumb luck. Really good players don't make that catch, let along slightly above average ones. You've gotta make a better throw.

What I'd like to see Patrick do a little more of is throw to an open area and let his WR adjust laterally. That's a lot more doable. The throw doesn't have to be as precise because the WR can adjust his angle to it without trying to fully put the brakes on his momentum. So throw to the inside/outside of someone like that and let them try to change their angle.

But those throws directly over the top? Shit man, they're just REALLY hard throws to make and if they aren't really good throws, they're damn near impossible catches to bring in.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He's overcorrected, IMO.

You just can't overthrow a guy with a full stride and give them no chance, so he started underthrowing them a bit.

Then you have folks (it's a hobby on CP) blaming the pass catcher for not "Going up and getting the ball!"

Fellas, there have been a half-dozen guys in NFL history that can do that. Hill could. But there's a reason 'Mossed' became a verb. That shit is RARE. You're asking a guy who's running on a dead sprint with his momentum taking him downfield to simply go straight up, turn his body and secure a catch with a guy coming downhill into his lap.

The simple act of stopping and going straight up is essentially impossible for all but the absolute elite of the elite. The rest need to decelerate, gather and then explode. MVS can't do that because he's not Tyreek Hill. If you underthrow him, he's not going to catch it. And it's not something that he 'needs to do!' - it's something that he physically CANNOT do because he's not a goddamn freak of nature.

What I'd like to see Patrick do a little more of is throw to an open area and let his WR adjust laterally. That's a lot more doable. The throw doesn't have to be as precise because the WR can adjust his angle to it without trying to fully put the brakes on his momentum. So throw to the inside/outside of someone like that and let them try to change their angle.

But those throws directly over the top? Shit man, they're just REALLY hard throws to make and if they aren't really good throws, they're damn near impossible catches to bring in.

"Do what Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss did and "come back to it"."

Well, yeah, I mean, do what the freaks of all freaks could do. Sure, yeah, right.

I think he banks on the potential for the catch/flag too much with the underthrows. YOu won't get as many walk in TD's, which we've missed a few of.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

"Do what Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss did and "come back to it"."

Well, yeah, I mean, do what the freaks of all freaks could do. Sure, yeah, right.

Lynn Swann has been on highlight reels for 50 years because he did it once. That single catch probably put him in the Hall.

"Man, I wish we had guys who could go up and catch those balls...."

{sigh}

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He's overcorrected, IMO.

You just can't overthrow a guy with a full stride and give them no chance, so he started underthrowing them a bit.

Then you have folks (it's a hobby on CP) blaming the pass catcher for not "Going up and getting the ball!"

Fellas, there have been a half-dozen guys in NFL history that can do that. Hill could. But there's a reason 'Mossed' became a verb. That shit is RARE. You're asking a guy who's running on a dead sprint with his momentum taking him downfield to simply go straight up, turn his body and secure a catch with a guy coming downhill into his lap.

The simple act of stopping and going straight up is essentially impossible for all but the absolute elite of the elite. The rest need to decelerate, gather and then explode. MVS can't do that because he's not Tyreek Hill. If you underthrow him, he's not going to catch it. And it's not something that he 'needs to do!' - it's something that he physically CANNOT do because he's not a goddamn freak of nature.

Ok, and then there's plays like the non-call DPI from Saturday, in which MVS wilted like a delicate flower with relatively minor contact.

Our WR's can def be stronger at the point of attack. That's not a part of MVS or Hardman's game.

So yes, we CAN ask our pass catchers to do more to help Mahomes out. Because yeah, Mahomes isn't always the most accurate down the field.

It's the entire reason why i argue against these small catch radius WR's.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Interesting, can't say I remember it in previous seasons, at least not to the extent of the Raiders game.

Their style of holding back is seriously frustrating at times, but in those games I almost just have to laugh and think... well, might want to pull your heads out of your asses. And they do at an alarming rate.

Yeah, I can't remember it specifically, but I don't rehash every game looking specifically for how many new plays are run. Unless it's pretty out there, a lot of times I don't notice until someone else brings it up.

I do remember one year, though i couldn't nail down exactly which now, so probably at least a couple three years ago, when Andy finished the season with more than the usual number of trick plays, and I got amped about it to the point that I predicted a ton of them in the playoffs. But that didn't really happen. There were trick plays, but not a big infusion of them.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He's overcorrected, IMO.

You just can't overthrow a guy with a full stride and give them no chance, so he started underthrowing them a bit.

Then you have folks (it's a hobby on CP) blaming the pass catcher for not "Going up and getting the ball!"

Fellas, there have been a half-dozen guys in NFL history that can do that. Hill could. But there's a reason 'Mossed' became a verb. That shit is RARE.

pretty sure toney is better at it than anyone else on the roster right now

he's gotten two of those kinds of balls from mahomes in very limited reps

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by Hammock Parties

pretty sure toney is better at it than anyone else on the roster right now

Toney is good at it. We've seen it pay off twice now.

It's not nearly as rare a skill is DJ is making it out to be.

There's a whole lot of meat between MVS/Hardman's lack of physicality and a HOF WR. Plenty.

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Toney is good at it. We've seen it pay off twice now.

It's not nearly as rare a skill is DJ is making it out to be.

There's a whole lot of meat between MVS/Hardman's lack of physicality and a HOF WR. Plenty.

Hardman is just an athlete, he isn't really a WR. MVS is what he is, he's skinny as hell so he isn't gonna out muscle anyone.

[O.city]

It's the same argument people make about basketball players at the NBA level needing to be "stronger" around the basket.

Well, when they guy bumping you is 6"8 and also a freak athlete, yeah, it's hard to do. There's a reason Lebron or MJ or whoever is such a great finisher around the rim. Not everyone can do it.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Ok, and then there's plays like the non-call DPI from Saturday, in which MVS wilted like a delicate flower with relatively minor contact.

Our WR's can def be stronger at the point of attack. That's not a part of MVS or Hardman's game.

So yes, we CAN ask our pass catchers to do more to help Mahomes out. Because yeah, Mahomes isn't always the most accurate down the field.

It's the entire reason why i argue against these small catch radius WR's.

MVS doesn't have a small catch radius. He runs downfield routes that require full speed movement and exceptionally high levels of momentum. That guy is long and fast with big arms and good leaping ability. He doesn't have a small catch radius - he simply has a low probability route tree.

He's not a low variance player. He's not a possession WR. If he were, with his frame and speed, he'd be Julio Jones.

He's not that guy because he doesn't have the freakish body control that Julio Jones had. So let's just stop acting like he should be.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Toney is good at it. We've seen it pay off twice now.

It's not nearly as rare a skill is DJ is making it out to be.

There's a whole lot of meat between MVS/Hardman's lack of physicality and a HOF WR. Plenty.

And Toney has truly rare physical skills.

That whip route he ran...sweet jesus, I pulled a hamstring watching it.

It's exactly what made Tyreek Hill as elite as he was. His ability to gather and explode at full speed is incredibly uncommon.

Body control ain't a given. Before Toney, we've had one guy in probably 25 years who demonstrated any proficiency with it (Hill).

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by O.city

It's the same argument people make about basketball players at the NBA level needing to be "stronger" around the basket.

Well, when they guy bumping you is 6"8 and also a freak athlete, yeah, it's hard to do. There's a reason Lebron or MJ or whoever is such a great finisher around the rim. Not everyone can do it.

Not everyone can do it.

But it's also not some super rare skill that you can't find except in HoF players.

I Like MVS and Hardman. I like their game. Their game is not physical though. And i think that plays a role in Mahomes' decision making.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Mecca

Hardman is just an athlete, he isn't really a WR. MVS is what he is, he's skinny as hell so he isn't gonna out muscle anyone.

He's bigger and stronger than probably 80% of the DBs who are contesting those balls. His size isn't what's preventing those catches.

Because it isn't about size. It's about body control.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by Hammock Parties

pretty sure toney is better at it than anyone else on the roster right now

he's gotten two of those kinds of balls from mahomes in very limited reps

Ben Skowronek for the Rams. He was able to go up and get balls for Baker. But maybe that's because he's not that fast.