Go on the record: Who do you want as GM and Head Coach?

[OnTheWarpath15]

Time to make some decisions, folks.

No lists, pick ONE GM.

PLEASE make this realistic. A current GM making a lateral move is not realistic.

Also: Pick a HC that you think would be a realistic choice of your GM.

Post bios if you wish.



I'll start:


GM: Eric DeCosta, 37, Director Of College Scouting, Baltimore Ravens.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/Peopl...c_DeCosta.aspx


HC: Rex Ryan, 46, Assistant Head Coach/Defensive Coordinator, Baltimore Ravens.


http://www.baltimoreravens.com/Peopl.../Rex_Ryan.aspx

[RustShack]

VP fooball operations- Vermiel
GM- Shottenhiemer
HC- Cowher
Ass. HC- Saunders
OC-Gailey
DC- Gun

[The Bad Guy]

Originally Posted by patteeu

If Clark dumps Herm one season into the rebuild after presumably giving the rebuild his vote of confidence, how could any future head coach trust ownership to stay the course on a future rebuild?

People around here complained endlessly about Carl Peterson's attempt to keep the ball rolling year after year even though it resulted in records at or around 9-7 more often than not, but Carl kept his job for 20 years and right now we're talking about canning Herm 1 year into his rebuild. The moral of this story is clear: If you can avoid it, don't risk a rebuild even if you think it would be good for the team a few years down the road because you probably won't be here to enjoy it.

Trust ownership?

This ownership stuck with the same man for 20 seasons to run this organization.

The moral of the story is this league is a production based business regardless of a rebuild. Herm has won 6 games out of 30. Sit back and think about those numbers for 2 seconds. 1 win out of every 5.

If this GM says he wants to go in another direction, it shouldn't be too hard of a sell to Clark considering just about every stat that matters points in the direction of Herm getting canned.

I'm tired of the word rebuilding too. It's rebuilding when your team sucks. Other teams win with completely overhauled rosters. What it comes down to is superior coaching.

[RedThat]

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

Trust ownership?

This ownership stuck with the same man for 20 seasons to run this organization.

The moral of the story is this league is a production based business regardless of a rebuild. Herm has won 6 games out of 30. Sit back and think about those numbers for 2 seconds. 1 win out of every 5.

If this GM says he wants to go in another direction, it shouldn't be too hard of a sell to Clark considering just about every stat that matters points in the direction of Herm getting canned.

I'm tired of the word rebuilding too. It's rebuilding when your team sucks. Other teams win with completely overhauled rosters. What it comes down to is superior coaching.

Exactly. You said it right there.

Im getting tired of that word "rebuilding" too. Im convinced it's an excuse to cover for Herms sorry a**.

I think the purpose of "rebuilding" is defeated in Kansas City due to the fact that Herm and his coaching staff do not coach up their young players to the best of their ability. It really comes down to not only drafting well, but good player development.

How can you have good player development when your coaching sucks?

And if you have bad player development, how can you expect your drafts to go well?

Rebuilding is pointless if your coaching staff sucks.

If you really think about it, they all factor in together.

[chiefzilla1501]

What a surprise, we disagree again. Canning a head coach isn't as simple as counting wins and losses. By that argument, Jeff Fisher should have been canned in the middle of 2006 when he won only 9 games out of 37. That's 1 win out of every 5--equally as bad.

I think Herm's firing is a foregone conclusion and I think it's a good decision. But I also think he got a raw deal and it's because there are those like you that think that any team could be coached out of a wet paper bag. Jeff Fisher is an amazing coach that proved that there is no remedy for a team in the middle of a rebuild. That is not even slightly saying that Herm Edwards is Jeff Fisher, but it does say that good coaches often struggle to win games when the talent on the team sucks.

And make no mistake that Carl Peterson's treatment of the word "rebuild" as if it were a 4-letter word is the main reason we are where we are today. He watched the team get old, he ****ed up draft after draft between 1999-2005, and we are hearing a lot of chatter that he is the main reason the team didn't start the rebuild until 2008 when it was 2 years too late.

The word "rebuild" is more than appropriate. It is what a team must do when your front office does such a lousy job managing the team that you wake up in 2006 and there are a handful of good players left on your roster. Good teams don't overhaul their roster--those that do, like Tennessee and Tampa, overcome a few losing seasons before they start winning. Good teams never have to rebuild because their rosters are so deep from years of good drafting and smart personnel moves.

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

Trust ownership?

This ownership stuck with the same man for 20 seasons to run this organization.

The moral of the story is this league is a production based business regardless of a rebuild. Herm has won 6 games out of 30. Sit back and think about those numbers for 2 seconds. 1 win out of every 5.

If this GM says he wants to go in another direction, it shouldn't be too hard of a sell to Clark considering just about every stat that matters points in the direction of Herm getting canned.

I'm tired of the word rebuilding too. It's rebuilding when your team sucks. Other teams win with completely overhauled rosters. What it comes down to is superior coaching.

[The Bad Guy]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

What a surprise, we disagree again. Canning a head coach isn't as simple as counting wins and losses. By that argument, Jeff Fisher should have been canned in the middle of 2006 when he won only 9 games out of 37. That's 1 win out of every 5--equally as bad.

I think Herm's firing is a foregone conclusion and I think it's a good decision. But I also think he got a raw deal and it's because there are those like you that think that any team could be coached out of a wet paper bag. Jeff Fisher is an amazing coach that proved that there is no remedy for a team in the middle of a rebuild. That is not even slightly saying that Herm Edwards is Jeff Fisher, but it does say that good coaches often struggle to win games when the talent on the team sucks.

And make no mistake that Carl Peterson's treatment of the word "rebuild" as if it were a 4-letter word is the main reason we are where we are today. He watched the team get old, he ****ed up draft after draft between 1999-2005, and we are hearing a lot of chatter that he is the main reason the team didn't start the rebuild until 2008 when it was 2 years too late.

The word "rebuild" is more than appropriate. It is what a team must do when your front office does such a lousy job managing the team that you wake up in 2006 and there are a handful of good players left on your roster. Good teams don't overhaul their roster--those that do, like Tennessee and Tampa, overcome a few losing seasons before they start winning. Good teams never have to rebuild because their rosters are so deep from years of good drafting and smart personnel moves.

Jeff Fisher took the Titans to the Super Bowl. He had success in this league. He earned the right to go through some rough years with Titans.

What the **** has Herm done to earn a free pass.

Wins and losses are the only thing I give a shit about as a fan of a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 15 years.

[chiefzilla1501]

I think you're on point here, but keep in mind that most players take 2-3 years to develop, most teams only pull 3 or 4 good rookies out of the draft/undrafted picks in a good year, and few teams rely on undrafted rookies and second day draft picks to the extent that we do.

Carl Peterson left this team so depleted that we forced rookies to contribute right away before they were ready, and we forced low-round, undrafted rookies to compete when they would be cut by most teams. I don't know that there has ever been a team in NFL history that has been asked to do so much with so little talent.

Originally Posted by RedBull

Exactly. You said it right there.

Im getting tired of that word "rebuilding" too. Im convinced it's an excuse to cover for Herms sorry a**.

I think the purpose of "rebuilding" is defeated in Kansas City due to the fact that Herm and his coaching staff do not coach up their young players to the best of their ability. It really comes down to not only drafting well, but good player development.

How can you have good player development when your coaching sucks?

And if you have bad player development, how can you expect your drafts to go well?

Rebuilding is pointless if your coaching staff sucks.

If you really think about it, they all factor in together.

[chiefzilla1501]

You are again missing the point.

I said that when a team is enduring a rebuild, even the best coaches in the league like Jeff Fisher struggle to win games.

There are lots of reasons to blame Herm Edwards for the problems in KC. But you absolutely cannot ignore the lemon of a team that was handed to him in 2005. And that was the result of front office mismanagement that happened well before Herm came into KC.

Pointing to wins and losses doesn't account for the roster he was given to work with. Blame Herm for poor game management and maybe not getting the most out of guys like McBride and Hali, but don't blame him for the fact that Peterson's mismanagement of the Chiefs led to 7 years of failed drafts and the oldest roster in football.

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

Jeff Fisher took the Titans to the Super Bowl. He had success in this league. He earned the right to go through some rough years with Titans.

What the **** has Herm done to earn a free pass.

Wins and losses are the only thing I give a shit about as a fan of a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 15 years.

[The Bad Guy]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

You are again missing the point.

I said that when a team is enduring a rebuild, even the best coaches in the league like Jeff Fisher struggle to win games.

There are lots of reasons to blame Herm Edwards for the problems in KC. But you absolutely cannot ignore the lemon of a team that was handed to him in 2005. And that was the result of front office mismanagement that happened well before Herm came into KC.

Pointing to wins and losses doesn't account for the roster he was given to work with. Blame Herm for poor game management and maybe not getting the most out of guys like McBride and Hali, but don't blame him for the fact that Peterson's mismanagement of the Chiefs led to 7 years of failed drafts and the oldest roster in football.

The lemon of a team that was handed to him? You act like this job was forced on Herm Edwards. He ****ing knew the team he was inheriting. He knew the problems that existed here. He worked here when Carl was here, so he should have known the person he was dealing with.

These are all the problems he BROUGHT onto himself.

I must have missed the memo where Herm was held at gunpoint to leave NY to come here.

[RippedmyFlesh]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I think you're on point here, but keep in mind that most players take 2-3 years to develop, most teams only pull 3 or 4 good rookies out of the draft/undrafted picks in a good year, and few teams rely on undrafted rookies and second day draft picks to the extent that we do.

Carl Peterson left this team so depleted that we forced rookies to contribute right away before they were ready, and we forced low-round, undrafted rookies to compete when they would be cut by most teams. I don't know that there has ever been a team in NFL history that has been asked to do so much with so little talent.

All herm had to do was not be terrible and he failed in my book.
No one expected playoffs this year just don't be embarrassing.
Your argument would carry more weight with me if most games were like carolina atlanta games.
But we have had 7 close games that were lost that could have been w's.
Thats bad coaching .
Rod marinelli would have done better this year than herm.

[chiefzilla1501]

Let's play a fun game here. You are head coach of the 2005 Chiefs. The starting roster Carl Peterson hands you is the following:

QB: Damon Huard
LT: Jordan Black
LG: Brian Waters
C: Casey Wiegmann (by the way, Wiegmann is starting to decline)
RG: Will Shields (by the way, he's a year away from retirement)
RT: Chris Terry
RB: Larry Johnson
FB: Tony Richardson
WR: Eddie Kennison (on the rapid decline)
WR: Samie Parker
WR: Dante Hall
TE: Tony Gonzalez

DE: Jared Allen
DT: Ryan Sims
DT: Junior Siavii
DE: Eric Hicks
OLB: Derrick Johnson
MLB: Kawika Mitchell
OLB: Kendrell Bell
FS: Greg Wesley
SS: Sammy Knight
CB: Patrick Surtain
CB: Eric Warfield

And oh, by the way, by 2008, 5 of those guys will be retired or too old to play effectively, 5 of those guys are so bad that they'll never find work outside of KC, and 4 of those guys will be situational backups. That's 14 guys you have to replace and almost all of these guys have even lousier backups backing them up.

You have 3 drafts and no money to spend to fix this mess. Your move, slick.

You can't possibly look at that 2005 roster without barfing. This team was a sinking ship well before Herm came into town, but rather than let the ship sink and then rebuild it, Peterson put some duct tape on the ship and forced it to float.

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

Trust ownership?

This ownership stuck with the same man for 20 seasons to run this organization.

The moral of the story is this league is a production based business regardless of a rebuild. Herm has won 6 games out of 30. Sit back and think about those numbers for 2 seconds. 1 win out of every 5.

If this GM says he wants to go in another direction, it shouldn't be too hard of a sell to Clark considering just about every stat that matters points in the direction of Herm getting canned.

I'm tired of the word rebuilding too. It's rebuilding when your team sucks. Other teams win with completely overhauled rosters. What it comes down to is superior coaching.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Let's play a fun game here. You are head coach of the 2005 Chiefs. The starting roster Carl Peterson hands you is the following:

QB: Damon Huard
LT: Jordan Black
LG: Brian Waters
C: Casey Wiegmann (by the way, Wiegmann is starting to decline)
RG: Will Shields (by the way, he's a year away from retirement)
RT: Chris Terry
RB: Larry Johnson
FB: Tony Richardson
WR: Eddie Kennison (on the rapid decline)
WR: Samie Parker
WR: Dante Hall
TE: Tony Gonzalez

DE: Jared Allen
DT: Ryan Sims
DT: Junior Siavii
DE: Eric Hicks
OLB: Derrick Johnson
MLB: Kawika Mitchell
OLB: Kendrell Bell
FS: Greg Wesley
SS: Sammy Knight
CB: Patrick Surtain
CB: Eric Warfield

And oh, by the way, by 2008, 5 of those guys will be retired or too old to play effectively, 5 of those guys are so bad that they'll never find work outside of KC, and 4 of those guys will be situational backups. That's 14 guys you have to replace and almost all of these guys have even lousier backups backing them up.

You have 3 drafts and no money to spend to fix this mess. Your move, slick.

You can't possibly look at that 2005 roster without barfing. This team was a sinking ship well before Herm came into town, but rather than let the ship sink and then rebuild it, Peterson put some duct tape on the ship and forced it to float.

Zilla-

That doesn't change the fact that for even as young and inexperienced as this team is, they have had the opportunity to win 6-7 games and poor coaching has gotten in the way.

Teams ARE allowed to develop AND win at the same time, you know.

[chiefzilla1501]

Yes, it was probably a bad decision on his part. But then, given the amount of control Peterson gave Vermeil, he probably expected to be afforded the same luxury.

It's been pretty much common knowledge that Herm wanted to rebuild and Peterson resisted every step of the way.

Had Peterson not stood in the way, this team would have been blown up in 2005 and we would be three steps ahead now than we currently are.

I think Herm is an 8-8 or a 9-7 coach at best right now. That's not good enough. And I'd be okay with him being fired on that premise. But I don't think he deserves nearly the amount of criticism he gets for screw-ups that were made by the front office, particularly ones that he fought against.

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

The lemon of a team that was handed to him? You act like this job was forced on Herm Edwards. He ****ing knew the team he was inheriting. He knew the problems that existed here. He worked here when Carl was here, so he should have known the person he was dealing with.

These are all the problems he BROUGHT onto himself.

I must have missed the memo where Herm was held at gunpoint to leave NY to come here.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Zilla-

That doesn't change the fact that for even as young and inexperienced as this team is, they have had the opportunity to win 6-7 games and poor coaching has gotten in the way.

Teams ARE allowed to develop AND win at the same time, you know.

I've said many times that Herm is not a good enough coach to pull off big wins and make it to the Super Bowl, and that he is a flawed coach.

What I am arguing against is those who also blame him for personnel problems and the fact that we were forced to rebuild, which were largely the fault of the front office. Or the fact that the team's irresponsible management forced way more late-round/undrafted players into the lineup than a normal team should.

I have rarely argued against Herm's dumb game management. But from a personnel standpoint, people are pointing the gun at the wrong guy.

[RippedmyFlesh]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Let's play a fun game here. You are head coach of the 2005 Chiefs. The starting roster Carl Peterson hands you is the following:

QB: Damon Huard
LT: Jordan Black
LG: Brian Waters
C: Casey Wiegmann (by the way, Wiegmann is starting to decline)
RG: Will Shields (by the way, he's a year away from retirement)
RT: Chris Terry
RB: Larry Johnson
FB: Tony Richardson
WR: Eddie Kennison (on the rapid decline)
WR: Samie Parker
WR: Dante Hall
TE: Tony Gonzalez

DE: Jared Allen
DT: Ryan Sims
DT: Junior Siavii
DE: Eric Hicks
OLB: Derrick Johnson
MLB: Kawika Mitchell
OLB: Kendrell Bell
FS: Greg Wesley
SS: Sammy Knight
CB: Patrick Surtain
CB: Eric Warfield

And oh, by the way, by 2008, 5 of those guys will be retired or too old to play effectively, 5 of those guys are so bad that they'll never find work outside of KC, and 4 of those guys will be situational backups. That's 14 guys you have to replace and almost all of these guys have even lousier backups backing them up.

You have 3 drafts and no money to spend to fix this mess. Your move, slick.

You can't possibly look at that 2005 roster without barfing. This team was a sinking ship well before Herm came into town, but rather than let the ship sink and then rebuild it, Peterson put some duct tape on the ship and forced it to float.

None of herm's other qualities can compensate for his bad game day management
If you don't see that I just don't know what to say..
DO you think he'll some how get better at making gameday decisions?
And using your arguement how come vermeils old guys seemed to have less injuries than herms young bucks?
Thats a problem that has followed him from the jets.

[dorseybowe]

Pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-Pioli. And Cowher.