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Old 12-29-2008, 12:45 PM  
ToxSocks ToxSocks is offline
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Why Pioli?
Just wondering. What has he done that makes him a better candidate than others?
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:11 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Hootie View Post
that's why I said I'm surprised Mecca is so high on Pioli...he is going to shit dozens of bricks watching Pioli reach for guys...every year the talking heads talk about how the Patriots draft board is always vastly different than the rest of the teams in the NFL...
Did you know that Pioli was only 175lbs when he was drafted?
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:12 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58 View Post
Again, being better than KC at drafting doesn't make you good at it.
Not to be a jackass, but for argument's sake, what team would you say has hit the most on their recent drafts?
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:14 PM   #63
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Interesting.
But remember where they were drafting. A lot harder to find Pro Bowlers picking 30-32nd.
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:14 PM   #64
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I know I said I didn't want to do this, but for comparison's sake, here is the NYG draft over the same time period.

2008 1 1 31 31 Kenny Phillips DB Miami (FL)
2 2 32 63 Terrell Thomas DB USC
3 3 32 95 Mario Manningham WR Michigan
4 4 24 123 Bryan Kehl LB Brigham Young
5 5 30 165 Jonathan Goff LB Vanderbilt
6 6 32 198 Andre' Woodson QB Kentucky
7 6 33 199 Robert Henderson DE Southern Mississippi
2007 1 1 20 20 Aaron Ross DB Texas
2 2 19 51 Steve Smith WR USC
3 3 18 81 Jay Alford DT Penn State
4 4 17 116 Zak DeOssie LB Brown
5 5 16 153 Kevin Boss TE Western Oregon
6 6 15 189 Adam Koets T Oregon State
7 7 14 224 Michael Johnson DB Arizona
8 7 40 250 Ahmad Bradshaw RB Marshall
2006 1 1 32 32 Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College
2 2 12 44 Sinorice Moss WR Miami (FL)
3 3 32 96 Gerris Wilkinson LB Georgia Tech
4 4 27 124 Barry Cofield DT Northwestern
5 4 32 129 Guy Whimper T East Carolina
6 5 26 158 Charlie Peprah DB Alabama
7 7 24 232 Gerrick McPhearson DB Maryland
2005 1 2 11 43 Corey Webster DB Louisiana State
2 3 10 74 Justin Tuck DE Notre Dame
3 4 9 110 Brandon Jacobs RB Southern Illinois
4 6 12 186 Eric Moore DE Florida State
2004 1 1 4 4 Philip Rivers QB North Carolina State
2 2 2 34 Chris Snee G Boston College
3 4 1 97 Reggie Torbor DE Auburn
4 5 4 136 Gibril Wilson DB Tennessee
5 6 3 168 Jamaar Taylor WR Texas A&M
6 7 2 203 Drew Strojny T Duke
7 7 52 253 Isaac Hilton DE Hampton
2003 1 1 25 25 William Joseph DT Miami (FL)
2 2 24 56 Osi Umenyiora DE Troy State
3 3 27 91 Vishante Shiancoe TE Morgan State
4 4 26 123 Roderick Babers DB Texas
5 5 25 160 David Diehl G Illinois
6 6 26 199 Willie Ponder WR Southeast Missouri State
7 6 34 207 Frank Walker DB Tuskegee
8 6 38 211 David Tyree WR Syracuse
9 7 26 240 Charles Drake DB Michigan
10 7 35 249 Wayne Lucier C Colorado
11 7 41 255 Kevin Walter WR Eastern Michigan
2002 1 1 14 14 Jeremy Shockey TE Miami (FL)
2 2 14 46 Tim Carter WR Auburn
3 3 13 78 Jeff Hatch T Pennsylvania
4 5 17 152 Nick Greisen LB Wisconsin
5 6 16 188 Wesley Mallard DB Oregon
6 7 15 226 Daryl Jones WR Miami (FL)
7 7 35 246 Quincy Monk LB North Carolina
2001 1 1 22 22 Will Allen DB Syracuse
2 3 16 78 William Peterson DB Western Illinois
3 4 19 114 Cedric Scott DE Southern Mississippi
4 4 30 125 Jesse Palmer QB Florida
5 5 29 160 John Markham K Vanderbilt
6 5 31 162 Jonathan Carter WR Troy State
7 7 30 230 Ross Kolodziej DE Wisconsin
2000 1 1 11 11 Ron Dayne RB Wisconsin
2 2 11 42 Cornelius Griffin DT Alabama
3 3 11 73 Ron Dixon WR Lambuth (TN)
4 4 11 105 Brandon Short LB Penn State
5 5 11 140 Ralph Brown DB Nebraska
6 6 11 177 Dhani Jones LB Michigan
7 7 11 217 Jeremiah Parker DE California
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:20 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Bowser View Post
Not to be a jackass, but for argument's sake, what team would you say has hit the most on their recent drafts?
Off the top of my head, Indy has to top the list.
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:21 PM   #66
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Looks to me like the Giants had more hits than the Patriots.
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:22 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock View Post
I know I said I didn't want to do this, but for comparison's sake, here is the NYG draft over the same time period.

2008 1 1 31 31 Kenny Phillips DB Miami (FL)
2 2 32 63 Terrell Thomas DB USC
3 3 32 95 Mario Manningham WR Michigan
4 4 24 123 Bryan Kehl LB Brigham Young
5 5 30 165 Jonathan Goff LB Vanderbilt
6 6 32 198 Andre' Woodson QB Kentucky
7 6 33 199 Robert Henderson DE Southern Mississippi
2007 1 1 20 20 Aaron Ross DB Texas
2 2 19 51 Steve Smith WR USC
3 3 18 81 Jay Alford DT Penn State
4 4 17 116 Zak DeOssie LB Brown
5 5 16 153 Kevin Boss TE Western Oregon
6 6 15 189 Adam Koets T Oregon State
7 7 14 224 Michael Johnson DB Arizona
8 7 40 250 Ahmad Bradshaw RB Marshall
2006 1 1 32 32 Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College
2 2 12 44 Sinorice Moss WR Miami (FL)
3 3 32 96 Gerris Wilkinson LB Georgia Tech
4 4 27 124 Barry Cofield DT Northwestern
5 4 32 129 Guy Whimper T East Carolina
6 5 26 158 Charlie Peprah DB Alabama
7 7 24 232 Gerrick McPhearson DB Maryland
2005 1 2 11 43 Corey Webster DB Louisiana State
2 3 10 74 Justin Tuck DE Notre Dame
3 4 9 110 Brandon Jacobs RB Southern Illinois
4 6 12 186 Eric Moore DE Florida State
2004 1 1 4 4 Philip Rivers QB North Carolina State
2 2 2 34 Chris Snee G Boston College
3 4 1 97 Reggie Torbor DE Auburn
4 5 4 136 Gibril Wilson DB Tennessee
5 6 3 168 Jamaar Taylor WR Texas A&M
6 7 2 203 Drew Strojny T Duke
7 7 52 253 Isaac Hilton DE Hampton
2003 1 1 25 25 William Joseph DT Miami (FL)
2 2 24 56 Osi Umenyiora DE Troy State
3 3 27 91 Vishante Shiancoe TE Morgan State
4 4 26 123 Roderick Babers DB Texas
5 5 25 160 David Diehl G Illinois
6 6 26 199 Willie Ponder WR Southeast Missouri State
7 6 34 207 Frank Walker DB Tuskegee
8 6 38 211 David Tyree WR Syracuse
9 7 26 240 Charles Drake DB Michigan
10 7 35 249 Wayne Lucier C Colorado
11 7 41 255 Kevin Walter WR Eastern Michigan
2002 1 1 14 14 Jeremy Shockey TE Miami (FL)
2 2 14 46 Tim Carter WR Auburn
3 3 13 78 Jeff Hatch T Pennsylvania
4 5 17 152 Nick Greisen LB Wisconsin
5 6 16 188 Wesley Mallard DB Oregon
6 7 15 226 Daryl Jones WR Miami (FL)
7 7 35 246 Quincy Monk LB North Carolina
2001 1 1 22 22 Will Allen DB Syracuse
2 3 16 78 William Peterson DB Western Illinois
3 4 19 114 Cedric Scott DE Southern Mississippi
4 4 30 125 Jesse Palmer QB Florida
5 5 29 160 John Markham K Vanderbilt
6 5 31 162 Jonathan Carter WR Troy State
7 7 30 230 Ross Kolodziej DE Wisconsin
2000 1 1 11 11 Ron Dayne RB Wisconsin
2 2 11 42 Cornelius Griffin DT Alabama
3 3 11 73 Ron Dixon WR Lambuth (TN)
4 4 11 105 Brandon Short LB Penn State
5 5 11 140 Ralph Brown DB Nebraska
6 6 11 177 Dhani Jones LB Michigan
7 7 11 217 Jeremiah Parker DE California
That's a much more impressive list than what NE has
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:22 PM   #68
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Off the top of my head, Indy has to top the list.
Also don't we have to include FA pick ups in an evaluation of a GM? NE has been the best at that in the NFL.

What about letting huge salaries for unproductive or aging players go away instead of count against the cap?

It's not all about the draft.

King Carl has failed miserably at the draft, FA's and letting high $ talent(but aging)walk away.
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:23 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock View Post
I know I said I didn't want to do this, but for comparison's sake, here is the NYG draft over the same time period.

2008 1 1 31 31 Kenny Phillips DB Miami (FL)
2 2 32 63 Terrell Thomas DB USC
3 3 32 95 Mario Manningham WR Michigan
4 4 24 123 Bryan Kehl LB Brigham Young
5 5 30 165 Jonathan Goff LB Vanderbilt
6 6 32 198 Andre' Woodson QB Kentucky
7 6 33 199 Robert Henderson DE Southern Mississippi
2007 1 1 20 20 Aaron Ross DB Texas
2 2 19 51 Steve Smith WR USC
3 3 18 81 Jay Alford DT Penn State
4 4 17 116 Zak DeOssie LB Brown
5 5 16 153 Kevin Boss TE Western Oregon
6 6 15 189 Adam Koets T Oregon State
7 7 14 224 Michael Johnson DB Arizona
8 7 40 250 Ahmad Bradshaw RB Marshall
2006 1 1 32 32 Mathias Kiwanuka DE Boston College
2 2 12 44 Sinorice Moss WR Miami (FL)
3 3 32 96 Gerris Wilkinson LB Georgia Tech
4 4 27 124 Barry Cofield DT Northwestern
5 4 32 129 Guy Whimper T East Carolina
6 5 26 158 Charlie Peprah DB Alabama
7 7 24 232 Gerrick McPhearson DB Maryland
2005 1 2 11 43 Corey Webster DB Louisiana State
2 3 10 74 Justin Tuck DE Notre Dame
3 4 9 110 Brandon Jacobs RB Southern Illinois
4 6 12 186 Eric Moore DE Florida State
2004 1 1 4 4 Philip Rivers QB North Carolina State
2 2 2 34 Chris Snee G Boston College
3 4 1 97 Reggie Torbor DE Auburn
4 5 4 136 Gibril Wilson DB Tennessee
5 6 3 168 Jamaar Taylor WR Texas A&M
6 7 2 203 Drew Strojny T Duke
7 7 52 253 Isaac Hilton DE Hampton
2003 1 1 25 25 William Joseph DT Miami (FL)
2 2 24 56 Osi Umenyiora DE Troy State
3 3 27 91 Vishante Shiancoe TE Morgan State
4 4 26 123 Roderick Babers DB Texas
5 5 25 160 David Diehl G Illinois
6 6 26 199 Willie Ponder WR Southeast Missouri State
7 6 34 207 Frank Walker DB Tuskegee
8 6 38 211 David Tyree WR Syracuse
9 7 26 240 Charles Drake DB Michigan
10 7 35 249 Wayne Lucier C Colorado
11 7 41 255 Kevin Walter WR Eastern Michigan
2002 1 1 14 14 Jeremy Shockey TE Miami (FL)
2 2 14 46 Tim Carter WR Auburn
3 3 13 78 Jeff Hatch T Pennsylvania
4 5 17 152 Nick Greisen LB Wisconsin
5 6 16 188 Wesley Mallard DB Oregon
6 7 15 226 Daryl Jones WR Miami (FL)
7 7 35 246 Quincy Monk LB North Carolina
2001 1 1 22 22 Will Allen DB Syracuse
2 3 16 78 William Peterson DB Western Illinois
3 4 19 114 Cedric Scott DE Southern Mississippi
4 4 30 125 Jesse Palmer QB Florida
5 5 29 160 John Markham K Vanderbilt
6 5 31 162 Jonathan Carter WR Troy State
7 7 30 230 Ross Kolodziej DE Wisconsin
2000 1 1 11 11 Ron Dayne RB Wisconsin
2 2 11 42 Cornelius Griffin DT Alabama
3 3 11 73 Ron Dixon WR Lambuth (TN)
4 4 11 105 Brandon Short LB Penn State
5 5 11 140 Ralph Brown DB Nebraska
6 6 11 177 Dhani Jones LB Michigan
7 7 11 217 Jeremiah Parker DE California



I counted 24 out of 58 picks. (2000-2007)

41%
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:31 PM   #70
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FWIW, I just counted up Indy...

27/65

41%
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:37 PM   #71
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Also don't we have to include FA pick ups in an evaluation of a GM? NE has been the best at that in the NFL.

What about letting huge salaries for unproductive or aging players go away instead of count against the cap?

It's not all about the draft.

King Carl has failed miserably at the draft, FA's and letting high $ talent(but aging)walk away.
San Diego picked up three undrafted free agent pro bowlers one year...and sniffed out Welker the next.

What you need is a franchise QB...although we already know that.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:02 PM   #72
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That actually wouldn't be very smart, unless they can be assured that a team would be willing to pay his tag amount or restructure to a long term big money deal they would be stuck with over 12 mil in a backup.
No they wouldn't. They can always withdraw their franchise tender before he signs it.

No player wants to be franchised. No player wants to sign that tender. And, when Cassel gets close to signing it, they can withdraw the offer.

Now, if I were Cassel, I may call their bluff quickly.... but, that is another topic altogether.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:04 PM   #73
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No they wouldn't. They can always withdraw their franchise tender before he signs it.

No player wants to be franchised. No player wants to sign that tender. And, when Cassel gets close to signing it, they can withdraw the offer.

Now, if I were Cassel, I may call their bluff quickly.... but, that is another topic altogether.
True...but if they withdraw it he automatically becomes an unrestricted free agent. The Patriots should just let him walk, take the 3rd round compensation pick, and if Brady can't go I'm sure O'Connell will step in and get the Pats 11 more wins.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:17 PM   #74
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[QUOTE=Hootie;5337412]True...but if they withdraw it he automatically becomes an unrestricted free agent. The Patriots should just let him walk, take the 3rd round compensation pick, and if Brady can't go I'm sure O'Connell will step in and get the Pats 11 more wins.[/QUOTE

Yes, IF they withdraw it, he becomes an unrestricted free agent. Teams franchise guys that they have no intention of keeping all the time.

Take for example.... Jared Allen.

Compensatory picks are subjective and are based on the totality of the team. If the Pats pick up another free agent, it may wipe out any compensatory picks they were looking at for Cassel.

They can at least get a second, and perhaps a first for Cassel.

If they don't at least try, they are stupid. And, this isn't the Lions we are talking about.
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Old 12-29-2008, 04:19 PM   #75
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yeah but they aren't going to get 'fair' value for Cassel because of Tom Brady...they don't have the leverage because teams know they don't want to commit $20+M on QB's next season.
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