Jovan Belcher, a gem found in the rough ?

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Your position is essentially that our interior defense was bad last season and since we can't upgrade at NT, we need to upgrade somewhere.

So if a better sideline to sideline backer shook free, shouldn't the Chiefs be compelled to 'exercise their due dilligence' and upgrade?

JFC, you love to argue.

The TED backer and NT NEED to upgraded. Nowhere did I state ANYTHING about Derrick Johnson or his play and I think it's ludicrous to suggest that he's going ANYWHERE after the extension he just signed.

But if you think that DJ needs to replaced, by all means, let us know why.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

JFC, you love to argue.

The TED backer and NT NEED to upgraded. Nowhere did I state ANYTHING about Derrick Johnson or his play and I think it's ludicrous to suggest that he's going ANYWHERE after the extension he just signed.

But if you think that DJ needs to replaced, by all means, let us know why.

I don't think DJ needs to be replaced. Nor do I think Belcher needs to be replaced. I don't think the problem with our run defense was our linebackers, well apart from Vrabel's inability even make it to his gap before the RB clears it.

You've made a handful of nebulous references to our 'porous run defense' as reasons that Belcher should be upgraded on. You've also made some comparisons to Bart Scott, a person to whom Belcher compares very favorably, to further suggest we should improve on Belcher. Afterall "something" needs to be done.

But if I turn around and say "well our run defense was porous and Patrick Willis gets sideline to sideline better than DJ, so we should upgrade on DJ if possible" isn't that playing the same game?

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I don't think DJ needs to be replaced. Nor do I think Belcher needs to be replaced. I don't think the problem with our run defense was our linebackers, well apart from Vrabel's inability even make it to his gap before the RB clears it.

You've made a handful of nebulous references to our 'porous run defense' as reasons that Belcher should be upgraded on. You've also made some comparisons to Bart Scott, a person to whom Belcher compares very favorably, to further suggest we should improve on Belcher. Afterall "something" needs to be done.

But if I turn around and say "well our run defense was porous and Patrick Willis gets sideline to sideline better than DJ, so we should upgrade on DJ if possible" isn't that playing the same game?

And you've completely avoided any attempt to address the fact that he was punked over and over and over by guards, running backs and fullbacks, that he's too light, that his lateral movement sucks and he's slow (4.85 at 228 pounds isn't exactly fast).

You asked who was a ILB that shed blocks consistently and I named ONLY two: Timmons and Scott. How many ****ing Jets and Ravens games have YOU watched the past two years? One? Two? And then you avoid addressing the Timmons comparison because you say his role is "different". Bullshit.

Nice.

The NT position needs to be addressed. Period. The TED backer position needs to be addressed. Period. There's no depth behind Belcher and if an upgrade or competition for the TED position can be found, the Chiefs would be remiss if they passed.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

And you've completely avoided any attempt to address the fact that he was punked over and over and over by guards, running backs and fullbacks, that he's too light, that his lateral movement sucks and he's slow (4.85 at 228 pounds isn't exactly fast).

You asked who was a ILB that shed blocks consistently and I named ONLY two: Timmons and Scott. How many ****ing Jets and Ravens games have YOU watched the past two years? One? Two? And then you avoid addressing the Timmons comparison because you say his role is "different". Bullshit.

Nice.

The NT position needs to be addressed. Period. The TED backer position needs to be addressed. Period. There's no depth behind Belcher and if an upgrade or competition for the TED position can be found, the Chiefs would be remiss if they passed.

Timmons role isn't different? He doesn't have an elite NT in front of him? And what exactly does he have to do with the Ravens?

I don't know how many of the Jets and Steelers games I've watched over the last 2 seasons, but I know they're on TV all the damn time, I know my neighbor has Sunday ticket and I watch a shitload of football. So unless you've become some guru of East Coast football out in Cali, I'm not inclined to believe you've watched infinitely more Jets or Steelers games than I have.

And Belcher was at 242 when he ran his 4.85 at the combine (i.e. almost exactly what Scott's doing). I don't know what he runs it in now, but I don't imagine he's lost any steps at 23 years old. And no, he wasn't getting consistently 'punked' by FBs and RBs. He was, however, consistently getting blasted by guards and over the course of the game that certainly took a toll on him. So yeah, he wasn't as effective as an ILB that didn't have to take on 300 lb men as often would've been.

You say I'm ignoring your point, but you continue to disregard the fact that Belcher was constantly under attack by blockers due to completely ineffectual play by his NT. This damages his reputation (the more often he has to shed tacklers, the more often he won't manage it by the virtue of sheer mathmatics), but it also damages his ability to effectively shed those same blockers by wearing his ass out.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Timmons role isn't different? He doesn't have an elite NT in front of him? And what exactly does he have to do with the Ravens?

I don't know how many of the Jets and Steelers games I've watched over the last 2 seasons, but I know they're on TV all the damn time, I know my neighbor has Sunday ticket and I watch a shitload of football. So unless you've become some guru of East Coast football out in Cali, I'm not inclined to believe you've watched infinitely more Jets or Steelers games than I have.

Well, since I DO the Sunday Ticket and I DO watch a shit ton of Jets and Steelers, I'd say you're wrong.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

And Belcher was at 242 when he ran his 4.85 at the combine (i.e. almost exactly what Scott's doing). I don't know what he runs it in now, but I don't imagine he's lost any steps at 23 years old. And no, he wasn't getting consistently 'punked' by FBs and RBs. He was, however, consistently getting blasted by guards and over the course of the game that certainly took a toll on him. So yeah, he wasn't as effective as an ILB that didn't have to take on 300 lb men as often would've been.

You say I'm ignoring your point, but you continue to disregard the fact that Belcher was constantly under attack by blockers due to completely ineffectual play by his NT. This damages his reputation (the more often he has to shed tacklers, the more often he won't manage it by the virtue of sheer mathmatics), but it also damages his ability to effectively shed those same blockers by wearing his ass out.

So, you're stating unequivocally that an upgrade or competition at the TED backer position would be a complete waste until a NT is in place? And that Belcher wouldn't benefit from playing at a higher weight or being more instinctive?

Okay. I'm convinced. Belcher is a stud and the TED backer couldn't possibly be upgraded with a different linebacker.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

So, you're stating unequivocally that an upgrade or competition at the TED backer position would be a complete waste until a NT is in place? And that Belcher wouldn't benefit from playing at a higher weight or being more instinctive?

Okay. I'm convinced. Belcher is a stud and the TED backer couldn't possibly be upgraded with a different linebacker.

As I said from the very beginning: You're providing a useless truism.

Unless you have the best player in the league at every position in the field, your team is always improved by upgrading on a player. The question is not and has not ever been 'is Jovan Belcher an irreplaceable, elite ILB that clearly cannot be upgraded upon?'

The question is: Is that a wise use of limited resources in light of the many other holes this team has in combination with Belcher's youth and production.

I see that answer as an unqualified 'NO' - it's a horrid use of those resources. His instincts are not bad at all for a guy that came from a small program. In fact, it's the more 'refined' areas of his game that need work (ability to operate well in space, how to use his hands effectively, etc...). Fortunately he's 23 years old in his 2nd year of professional football, so I think there's time for him yet to improve in those areas. And would he be better if he was heavier? I don't really think he needs to be, as much as it pains me to admit it, I think the Guardian is right here - he's probably playing around 230-240 lbs. Could he put on 5-10? Sure, but again, as I've noted, give him another season on an NFL strength and conditioning schedule and there's no question in my mind he can get there.

You continue, over and over again, to ignore my clearly stated positions in favor of useless straw-men. Perhaps you should just go re-read the thread before you hit submit next time and ask yourself "has the person I'm speaking to already addressed this?" It would really save us both some time.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

As I said from the very beginning: You're providing a useless truism.

Unless you have the best player in the league at every position in the field, your team is always improved by upgrading on a player. The question is not and has not ever been 'is Jovan Belcher an irreplaceable, elite ILB that clearly cannot be upgraded upon?'

The question is: Is that a wise use of limited resources in light of the many other holes this team has in combination with Belcher's youth and production.

I see that answer as an unqualified 'NO' - it's a horrid use of those resources. His instincts are not bad at all for a guy that came from a small program. In fact, it's the more 'refined' areas of his game that need work (ability to operate well in space, how to use his hands effectively, etc...). Fortunately he's 23 years old in his 2nd year of professional football, so I think there's time for him yet to improve in those areas. And would he be better if he was heavier? I don't really think he needs to be, as much as it pains me to admit it, I think the Guardian is right here - he's probably playing around 230-240 lbs. Could he put on 5-10? Sure, but again, as I've noted, give him another season on an NFL strength and conditioning schedule and there's no question in my mind he can get there.

You continue, over and over again, to ignore my clearly stated positions in favor of useless straw-men. Perhaps you should just go re-read the thread before you hit submit next time and ask yourself "has the person I'm speaking to already addressed this?" It would really save us both some time.

I've got a better idea: I'll just ignore your stupid ass altogether.

Yay Belcher! Best ILB in the league.

****tard.